ARCHIVE: NIV Bible Quiz

[Christine]

I recently acquired a parallel New Testament, where you can compare eight different translations at once. I found it very interesting that other translations besides the NIV are leaving out verses in this parallel, and they aren't putting them in the notes. The New Century Version is guilty of the same sin. Also, I found the translations of some verses in the "Conterporary English Version" and "The Message" was poor.

 

[Lighthouse]

greatdivide-
Original language is usually best, but barring that, a transliteration that is from the majority text. Young's Literal Translation seems to be an excellent choice. But I willhave to study further to find which translation is actually the best.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by granite1010

KJV says the same thing, man. A slight update in the wording does not change a lick about the passage's meaning or intent.

This is the Mosaic law, like it or not.

:readthis:

 

[Jabez]

Still no word from the Pastor.From what ive been reading in Hebrew and my thinking on it,leads me to beleive this could be rape.

NIV

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, 27 for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [2] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.


KJV

25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

It seems verse 25-29 are basicly the same,besides the betrothed part.Does anyone else see it?

 

[Jabez]

JPS 1917 Edition

25 But if the man find the damsel that is betrothed in the field, and the man take hold of her, and lie with her; then the man only that lay with her shall die. 26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death; for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter. 27 For he found her in the field; the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. {S} 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he hath humbled her; he may not put her away all his days.

Interesting this is the The Hebrew Bible in English.

 

[Granite]

"Still no word from the Pastor.From what ive been reading in Hebrew and my thinking on it,leads me to beleive this could be rape."

I'm not surprised. If I was your pastor I wouldn't want to touch this, either.

 

[the Sibbie]

Originally posted by Jabez

Still no word from the Pastor.From what ive been reading in Hebrew and my thinking on it,leads me to beleive this could be rape.

NIV

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, 27 for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [2] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.


KJV

25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

It seems verse 25-29 are basicly the same,besides the betrothed part.Does anyone else see it?

Jabez, if a girl is raped, should the punishment be different if a girl is married, engaged, or single?

 

[Jabez]

Originally posted by the Sibbie

Jabez, if a girl is raped, should the punishment be different if a girl is married, engaged, or single?

From what iam reading and learning that is indeed the case.

 

[the Sibbie]

Originally posted by Jabez

JPS 1917 Edition

25 But if the man find the damsel that is betrothed in the field, and the man take hold of her, and lie with her; then the man only that lay with her shall die. 26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death; for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter. 27 For he found her in the field; the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. {S} 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he hath humbled her; he may not put her away all his days.

Interesting this is the The Hebrew Bible in English.

Compare verse 28 with

JPS 1917:

EX 22:16 (22:15) And if a man entice a virgin that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely pay a dowry for her to be his wife.
EX 22:17 (22:16) If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

Online Source

 

[Jabez]

EX 22:16 (22:15) And if a man entice a virgin that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely pay a dowry for her to be his wife.
EX 22:17 (22:16) If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

To me that is saying seduce.How does that relate to the rape of 28?

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Jabez

EX 22:16 (22:15) And if a man entice a virgin that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely pay a dowry for her to be his wife.
EX 22:17 (22:16) If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

To me that is saying seduce.How does that relate to the rape of 28?

...and does anyone else have a problem with a seducer buying his way out of trouble?

 

[the Sibbie]

Originally posted by Jabez

Still no word from the Pastor.From what ive been reading in Hebrew and my thinking on it,leads me to beleive this could be rape.

NIV

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, 27 for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [2] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.


KJV

25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

It seems verse 25-29 are basicly the same,besides the betrothed part.Does anyone else see it?

I emphasised a few important details that are being overlooked. In the cases where the girls called for help, I would considered that rape. If the girl didn't call out and she and the man were "found out" or "discovered", I consider that consensual sex. The only difference with the consenual sex is it is a sin and capital crime if the girl is married or betrothed (engaged), but is just a sin if the girl is single. If the girl is single then the Bible instructs that they should be married.

Exodus 22
Social Responsibility
16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. 17 If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins. (NIV)


Exodus 22
Social Responsibility

16"If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged to anyone and sleeps with her, he must pay the customary dowry and accept her as his wife. 17But if her father refuses to let her marry him, the man must still pay the money for her dowry. (NLT)


Exodus 22
16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins. (KJV)


Exodus 22
Moral and Ceremonial Principles
16 "If a man entices a virgin who is not betrothed, and lies with her, he shall surely pay the bride-price for her to be his wife. 17If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the bride-price of virgins. (NKJV)

Exodus 22:16-17 presents the same scenario as Deuteronomy 22:28-29.

 

[Granite]

:shut:

 

[the Sibbie]

Originally posted by Jabez

EX 22:16 (22:15) And if a man entice a virgin that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely pay a dowry for her to be his wife.
EX 22:17 (22:16) If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

To me that is saying seduce.How does that relate to the rape of 28?

If the word rape was left out of Deut. 22:28, what would you think they were talking about?


We are trying to point out that the word "rape" in verse 28 is mistranslated.

 

[Jabez]

Actualy what the hebrew ive been looking at,there is no direct translation for the word rape,again i could be wrong but i have not found it.At this point in my studies i beleive 22:28 to be rape i havent found anything to sway my opion.The more i read it and look at it the more i see rape.My studies are still on going as i have invested hours of study and some frustrateing times looking at the hebrew text for myself..

 

[Granite]

The word describing what the guy does is "taphas."

to catch, handle, lay hold, take hold of, seize, wield
to lay hold of, seize, arrest, catch
to grasp (in order to) wield, wield, use skilfully
to be seized, be arrested, be caught, be taken, captured
to catch, grasp (with the hands)

Ummm...this kinda sounds like...gee, I dunno. Rape, maybe.

Translated words include:

KJV--catch, handle, hold, surprised, take, taken
NAS--arrested, capture, captured, caught, grasp, grasps, handle, handled, hold, lay hold, lays hold, occupy, overlaid, play, profane, seize, seized, seizes, surely be captured, take, taken over, took, took hold, wielding, wields

 

[the Sibbie]

Let's simplify Deut. 22-29.


Case #1 where both shall die:
22. A married woman. Both of them shall die.

23. A betrothed virgin. Both of them shall die.

Why both shall die:
24. The betrothed virgin shall die because she did not cry out and the man because he humbled his neighbor's wife.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Case #2 where only man shall die:
25. A betrothed young woman. Only the man shall die.

26. There is no sin in the young, betrothed woman.

Why only man shall die:
27. The young, betrothed woman cried out. There was no one there to save her.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Case #3 where neither shall die, but be married:
28. A young virgin who is not betrothed. They are found out.

29. Young man shall give fifty shekels of silver to young unbetrothed virgin's father and shall marry her.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


In the first case, they only give a scenario for the married woman and betrothed woman, why not the unbetrothed woman?

In the second case, only a scenario for the betrothed woman. Why not the married woman and the unbetrothed woman?

In the third case, only a scenario for the unbetrothed woman is given. Why not the married and betrothed woman?

 

[Jabez]

Originally posted by the Sibbie

Let's simplify Deut. 22-29.


Case #1 where both shall die:
22. A married woman. Both of them shall die.

23. A betrothed virgin. Both of them shall die.

Why both shall die:
24. The betrothed virgin shall die because she did not cry out and the man because he humbled his neighbor's wife.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Case #2 where only man shall die:
25. A betrothed young woman. Only the man shall die.

26. There is no sin in the young, betrothed woman.

Why only man shall die:
27. The young, betrothed woman cried out. There was no one there to save her.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Case #3 where neither shall die, but be married:
28. A young virgin who is not betrothed. They are found out.

29. Young man shall give fifty shekels of silver to young unbetrothed virgin's father and shall marry her.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


In the first case, they only give a scenario for the married woman and betrothed woman, why not the unbetrothed woman?

In the second case, only a scenario for the betrothed woman. Why not the married woman and the unbetrothed woman?

In the third case, only a scenario for the unbetrothed woman is given. Why not the married and betrothed woman?

I dont see anything different to change my view.

 

[drbrumley]

I don't know what your looking at Jabez. Thas pretty convincing.

 

[Jabez]

I see it differently is all.I have made my case that i beleive it is rape,but like i said earlier iam still studing to be clear.