ARCHIVE: My niece is gay and I love her for it. So does God.

Lion

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Something wicked this way comes....

Something wicked this way comes....

An inside look at Wickedwoman’s original post from page one:?

My nephew was a pedophile from the day he was born. I don’t know what caused it. Maybe he got a little too much of this hormone or too little of that. All I know is that every picture I see of him from the day he started to play with others, he liked to play with children a little more than adults. I can’t put my finger on it now, I just know he was different. That doesn’t make him a sinner.



When he was 4 years old he used to dress up in his dad’s work clothes and work boots (always trying to look older). For Halloween he was always an army man or a Star Trek captain, (someone older than the other kids). All of his friends were little’(er) boys. He chose them because he liked little’(er) boys better. When he saw that younger boys liked kids their own age better, he was devastated. His best friend, Patrick told him one day teenagers were “icky.” It changed his attitude about life forever.

Sometimes I wonder if it was something I did or said (like that time in the bathroom) or something his mom or dad did or didn’t do. When it comes right down to it, it doesn’t matter (how could it since there are no eternal consequences and we are just evolved animals anyway). Whether it was environment or genetics, nevertheless, he had no control over what happened to him and in him. It just was. Either way, no loving god (that I would create) would send him to Hell for it. Of this I am sure (I hope).

So tell me that god thinks he’s an “abomination.” But this time, tell me while using my brain. Don’t quote from some book or authoritative source. Give me a reason as to why God is going to send him to Hell, from my beliefs and thoughts, for being a pedophile? I challenge you to give me one good reason (from my point of view). He is not harming anyone, he is not even harming himself. He always gets the little boys to play with him by giving them presents and by being nice. They never complain. What harms my pedophile nephew the most is when he tries to fit in and be normal.

He’s much happier now that he is freely a pedophile, with no guilty feelings. He and his young friends are not sexually involved right now (the child’s parents haven’t dropped him off to be baby sat yet). He wants to show the parents how nice he is. When I see him holding that young boy and enjoying being together so much, I think “how could this be wrong?”
When you make up your beliefs it is much easier to hold them sacred. When something comes and knocks on the door of your house, then it’s different. god is that way too. Do you think he/she/it looks at you and says “you know, if you just weren’t so critical of pedophiles, I would let you come to Heaven.” Or “if you didn’t get so angry in traffic, I would love you.” Or “if you didn’t spend so much time gossiping with your friends you would be alright in my book.”

No, the God I’ve made up isn’t like that. People who believe this person or that person is going to Hell don’t really know those pedophiles they condemn. The make them objects and categorize them in the “bad” category. They don’t feel personally attached to the “bad” ones because if they did, they wouldn’t be able to keep them on the “bad” list. That’s why the God I made up doesn’t have a “bad” list. He/she/it does know each of us personally and he/she/it could never send anyone to Hell (I wouldn’t let he/she/it!).

Now I’m talking to all of you who believe there is a Hell (there isn’t of course….I hope) and that there are people who will go there someday (not me of course….I hope): “As long as you keep your ears shut, your house of cards will not fall. As long as you refuse to let what I call (in my infinite and unathoritive wisdom) a logical thought enter your head, you will continue to swallow whatever the preacher tells you is right. You don’t have to think (I certainly never do), you’ve got the Bible, the preacher, the Sunday school teacher. Is that what you really believe? But if one little doubt enters your head (like maybe it’s okay to be a pedophile), your whole system of beliefs will begin to fall. It’s time you started thinking for yourself, (after all, we are all gods, or at least I am). Give it a try (I command you).”
 
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Poly

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Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Originally posted by Lion
An inside look at Wickedwoman’s original post from page one:?

My nephew was a pedophile from....
Wow.. talk about putting it into perspective.:thumb:
 

Paradõsis

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We should love everyone because they are made in the image of God. With this image comes a responsibility, though: we must "seek holiness" (ie. He who is Holy). Therefore, when we truly love someone and we see them heading towards an infinitely dark cliff, we warn them.

Some people think that God puts up barriers: I agree. God puts up barriers around cliffs so that we don't fall into them. It's our choice whether we climb over them or not. Those who don't care about God will climb over the fence in defiance, sometimes just to prove that they can do anything they want. Christians will not climb over the fence, not because they are legalists following rules, but because they trust that God knows best and follow his guidance.

If you see someone heading towards a cliff, and getting ready to climb over a fence, try to stop them. I'm very saddened by what I see today in the way of excuses and rationalisations for sin. I think there will be many on judgment day who will say:

"But God, you made me this way"

To which God might respond:

"I didn't make you that way, I only allowed you to be born that way. What's more, I allowed everyone to be born with defects and with their "image" dirtied. Now, why did you make excuses and avoid me instead of letting me clean you off?"

Saying that homosexuality is "natural" (ie. "I was born that way") is like saying that death is "natural". Just because it happens without a person intending it to happen, and just because God allows something to happen, that doesn't make it good or proper. God promises us so much more if we stop focusing on what is "natural" and start focusing on what he can supernaturally do, through his uncreated grace.

I love your niece too (and I know God does to). That's why I hope and pray she seeks the Lord on His supernatural terms, not on hers, which are natural and fallen.
 
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wickwoman

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Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Originally posted by Lion
He is not harming anyone, he is not even harming himself. He always gets the little boys to play with him by giving them presents and by being nice. They never complain. What harms my pedophile nephew the most is when he tries to fit in and be normal.

Dear Leo:

Are you making an argument for pedophilia? It seems you believe that nobody is harmed by pedophiles. Either that or you've gotten your sins mixed up.

I haven't seen a reasonable challenge to the idea that being gay harms no one.
 

Sozo

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Re: Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Re: Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Originally posted by wickwoman
Are you making an argument for pedophilia? It seems you believe that nobody is harmed by pedophiles. Either that or you've gotten your sins mixed up.

Well at least you have finally admitted that homosexuality is a sin!
 

shilohproject

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Re: Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Re: Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Originally posted by Polycarpadvo

Wow.. talk about putting it into perspective.:thumb:

Do you two honestly equate the sexual proclivities of consenting adult homosexuals with the preditorial behavior of a pedophile?
If so, that's scary.
 

wickwoman

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Re: Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Re: Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Originally posted by Polycarpadvo

Wow.. talk about putting it into perspective.:thumb:

Here's let's put Leo's opinion into perspective.

"Leo was a judgmental hatemonger since the day he was born, he isn't hurting anyone . . ."

Wait, that doesn't work here. That does hurt someone. Oh well. I'm just not as handy with words as Leo.
 

wickwoman

New member
Re: Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Re: Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Originally posted by Polycarpadvo

Wow.. talk about putting it into perspective.:thumb:

Here's let's put Leo's opinion into perspective.

"Leo was a judgmental hatemonger since the day he was born, he isn't hurting anyone . . ."

Wait, that doesn't work here. Being judgmental and full of hate does hurt someone. Oh well. I'm just not as handy with words as Leo.
 

wickwoman

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Re: Re: Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Re: Re: Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Originally posted by Sozo


Well at least you have finally admitted that homosexuality is a sin!

Since I don't believe in sin you can call anything you want a sin and it doesn't frighten me. When something doesn't exist, it doesn't exist and "sin" is not a real thing that exists. It is something dreamed up in the mind of man to perpetuate the falacy that man is separate from God.
 

wickwoman

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Dear Paradosis:

If I had a child, how would this wash:

"I had a child and he wasn't perfect. I purposely abused alcohol while I was pregnant because I wanted my child to have the experience of overcoming the physical defects he would suffer as a result of my alcohol abuse. When he overcomes this defect I purposely caused him to have, then I will love my child and allow my child to live with me at our beautiful home I've built for us. If my child doesn't overcome the difficulties of the birth defect I've forced on him, I've created a torture chamber for my child to live out eternity. I'm such a wonderful and loving parent!! It's my child's choice to overcome his difficulties and live at our beautiful mansion with me or to be tortured for all eternity! Freewill is my middle name!
 

calvinistkid

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Wickwoman, I would like to know how you come to the conclusion that my beliefs are "illogical". I would agree that from YOUR worldview they are, but from my worldview YOUR position is illogical. You see, a person's most fundamental beliefs (who God is, why they exist, etc.) determine the way that they look at life. I believe that homosexuality is a sin because I believe that a sovereign God decrees it is so. You may deny the existence of my particular deity, but that does not in any way make my position illogical (if my particular deity does not exist, then I may be WRONG, but wrong and illogical are two very different things).
Secondly, I would like to address your accusation that I am being "judgemental". You claim that she was born that way, and that it is wrong to say that the way she was born is not "good". For a minute I am going to lay aside my disagreement with you about the possibility/impossibility of being born homosexual. We could argue about that for months and I have a feeling that neither one of us would get anywhere. So let's assume for a moment that she WAS born that way. Does that make it right? Let me give you an example. I have a friend who'se brother was born with down's syndrome. Now, he did not have down's syndrome through any fault of his own. However, his family sought to place him into programs to overcome the symptoms of this disease so that he could live a "normal" life. Was that being "hateful" or "judgemental"? Were we being "intolerant" of his status as mentaly and physicaly retarded by seeking to "fix" him? I hope you see my point here. Even if homosexuality was something that you could be born with, what makes it different than any other birth defect that we would throw up our hands and say "Too bad. They were just born that way."?
 

wickwoman

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Originally posted by calvinistkid
Let me give you an example. I have a friend who'se brother was born with down's syndrome. Now, he did not have down's syndrome through any fault of his own. However, his family sought to place him into programs to overcome the symptoms of this disease so that he could live a "normal" life. Was that being "hateful" or "judgemental"? Were we being "intolerant" of his status as mentaly and physicaly retarded by seeking to "fix" him? I hope you see my point here. Even if homosexuality was something that you could be born with, what makes it different than any other birth defect that we would throw up our hands and say "Too bad. They were just born that way."?

No, it is not bad that your friends want their child to live a normal life, however, it would be bad if your friends decided that because their child did not overcome his/her physical limitations he/she would have to go to Hell for all eternity.

I respect your beliefs. I'm sorry if I was disrespectful. Sometimes I get carried away. You see, this issue is very personal for me. I love my niece very much and wouldn't want to change a thing about her. My only wish for her is that she be happy. If I, a human being, am capable of such love, how much more is God?
 

Sozo

New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Originally posted by wickwoman


Since I don't believe in sin you can call anything you want a sin and it doesn't frighten me. When something doesn't exist, it doesn't exist and "sin" is not a real thing that exists. It is something dreamed up in the mind of man to perpetuate the falacy that man is separate from God.

Then why did you refer to it as a sin?
 

wickwoman

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Something wicked this way comes....

Originally posted by Sozo


Then why did you refer to it as a sin?

Lion referred to pedophilia in the same vain as homosexuality. I believe the remark from me was that Lion got "his" sins mixed up, if you want to get technical. Thus eluding to the fact that Lion thinks homosexuality is a sin. So, if I call something a sin, that would be to say a Christian thinks this it is a sin. It is a somewhat sarcastic comment.
 

Calvinist

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Define me, narrow me, you deprive yourself of yourself. Nail me down in a box of cold words, those words are your coffin. --Rumi

I thought the expression was, "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me."
 

calvinistkid

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Originally posted by wickwoman


No, it is not bad that your friends want their child to live a normal life, however, it would be bad if your friends decided that because their child did not overcome his/her physical limitations he/she would have to go to Hell for all eternity.

Well, I think you are slightly misunderstanding my beliefs. I believe that homosexuality is wrong, but I don't believe that it is the homosexuality per se that will send her to hell. It is the sinful nature that we are all born with. The homosexuality is merely an outgrowth of this nature. If God choses to change her sinful nature ("save" her), then she will be given the desire AND the ability to turn from her current lifestyle.

Originally posted by wickwoman
I respect your beliefs. I'm sorry if I was disrespectful. Sometimes I get carried away. You see, this issue is very personal for me. I love my niece very much and wouldn't want to change a thing about her. My only wish for her is that she be happy. If I, a human being, am capable of such love, how much more is God?

I understand that this is a personal issue. I would not want you to stop loving your niece. However, I believe that it is quite possible to correct in love.
 

wickwoman

New member
Dear Calvinistkid:

I assume you are a Calvinist. I don't know a lot about Calvinism. Based on your post above it appears that only some are chosen by God, others will be doomed? Is that correct? I am not being critical, only curious. Have you ever referred to it as "fate?"

I am a firm believer in fate, that things are chosen beforehand to be a certain way (possibly by us in our pre-birth state) and that we choose our particular disabilities, defects, habits, or propensities so that we can learn from them and spiritually evolve into the perfect spiritual beings we are one day to be.

So, if someone wanted to say a homosexual chose to be such PRIOR to their birth and this "difference" would be a way for them to better themselves spiritually, then I would agree wholeheartedly. However, to say that sexual preference is a sin, is to put too much emphasis on the physical body which, for the most part, is only a vehicle we use to travel through this life.

Look at all of nature which is only a reflection of the creator. Even flowers are sexual, it is the way they continue their species. So, as to what sex God is, if forced to chose, I would have to say he/she is a hermaphrodite. Because all came from him/her and there was no one who pre-existed God. Therefore, he would have no one to mate with in order to give birth to the universe. It is also possible that God does not have a body, so he/she is neither male, nor female.

Homosexuality is a threat, mostly to men, because it brings a third sex into the equation - one who may look like something on the outside, but feel like something else on the inside. And since, at the root of Christianity is the belief that men are put at the head of the family, thus superior, this makes things a little muddy.

Or how about this idea, natural selection is the process by which a population is kept under control. I believe "they" say that more people are alive right now than have lived and died in the history of man. That's amazing! I think we all know the earth is over populated. Some will die of diseases, starvation will weed out some. Absent intervention, a homosexual cannot procreate with his or her partner. What if homosexuality is nature's answer for reducing the population of the earth? When we just put some thought into these important issues rather than placing them quickly into neat little categories that don't frighten us, it's amazing what answers we can come up with.
 

o2bwise

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My Own Unique View

My Own Unique View

My view is definitely in contrast to everyone else's here.

Poly, Lion...
To equate pedophilia with homosexuality without extensive explanation is pathetic. This is the Current Events forum where people's beliefs are far more pluralistic than those beliefs you can conveniently wrap within the confines of your own.

In short, words are recipient-dependent. In this case, they couldn't work. They could only harm. I am inclined to think "hurting" was your intent all along.

And Poly, your words about "evil loving evil," well, thank God that while we were still sinners (evil), Christ died for us. Do you embrace a theology so deviant from that of Christ?


wickwoman,

Here is my view and it is the view of one within recovery for homosexuality. No one chooses to be homosexual. I agree.

But, it is at least hypothetically possible that humans were created in such a way that were they to be 100% "whole" in a psychological sense, their only mode of sexual expression could be heterosexual within a life-long committed monogamous relationship.

Conversely, if one is homosexual, that is symptomatic of an inner brokenness of heart. And were that brokenness healed, the person would be homosexual no more.

I state this as a hypothetical. Assuming it is true, far be it from me to insist that "unwellness" is "wellness."

Now, you claim that your niece may be gay because of genetic factors, i.e. she was born that way. Well, so what? Biblically speaking, even our very flesh has a moral component. Sin is of the mind, but our flesh is a source of pulls to submit to sin.

The Christian life is, in part, a call to have the lusts and passions of the flesh be crucified. One is not appealing to biblical Christianity when one advocates a certain behavior on the premise that one has a propensity for that behavior due to one's very own genetics.

I am not here to insist your niece is "lost." I know of homosexuals who were "born again" and remained in homosexual monogamous relationships - for a season. We are all sinners. Particular sins are revealed, not in a moment, but in progressive fashion.

But, it is my own sense that it does not take long in the Christian walk of sanctification before one happens upon the discernment that homosexuality indeed is sin.

I would guess that IF your niece is a spiritual person and given her contentment in homosexuality, she is at a baby stage in her walk.


Back to the "Christians." I do not think most have any idea how truly difficult this particular sin is. And I think this is precisely WHY it is biblically referred to as an abomination. The sin itself has such binding cords. Recovery is a process. It may take years.

As an example, I know one homosexual for whom the very thought of being intimate with a woman is totally repulsive to him.

How would any of you like to be like that? How would you like to be such a way that you sexually burn for your own sex and are repulsed by the opposite sex?

Heed the admonishment of Hebrews 13 (I believe verse 3). Walk in his moccasins. Not in his sin, but understand the prison bars that hold him. Trace cause and effect.

If you did, there would be far more compassion and love - and NO judgment. That would be left to God.

Tony (o2)
 

Poly

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Re: My Own Unique View

Re: My Own Unique View

Originally posted by o2bwise
And Poly, your words about "evil loving evil," well, thank God that while we were still sinners (evil), Christ died for us.
Yes, thank God, He did so that we could be (evil) no more.
Do you embrace a theology so deviant from that of Christ?
No
 

o2bwise

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A Post Without Substance

A Post Without Substance

Poly,

My point stands, unrefuted. God loves that niece, thus, it need not follow that wickwoman loves her niece because she (wickwoman) is evil.

You seem to have some understanding of the law. I look forward to the day you have a deeper understanding of its weightier matters.

o2
 
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