ARCHIVE: God's mass-murder in the flood

[smothers]

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Since you are pretending to believe in the God of the Bible long enough to accuse him of evil. My responses will also pretend that you belive in God as well. Fair enough. God brought life into existence from non life and gave each person a spirit. You and your wife brought life into existence from life and God gave it a spirit. When a man is killed his spirit still exsists in heaven or hell. So if God decides to send beings to their final state of life since he created them it is his prerogative.

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I concede your point that God has the right to send beings to their final state if the method does not involve un-necessary suffering. In the flood story, God caused children younger than the age of accountability to drown. Imagine a pre-school child's horror of watching her mother float away. Imagine hours later the same child, cold and tired sinking to her death. If that isn't cruel I don't know what is.
As you say, God can transport people from one state to another. Why does the method involve cruelty and suffering? Why didn't he simply will the vast majority to their after-life? I'm sure that a just and compassionate being that happens to be omnipotent would choose that route.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by smothers
Knight, please think outside of the box. Why couldn't an omnipotent God create a universe in which freewill would exist without the possibility of His creation using it to do evil? If God isn't as omnipotent as some claim, then creating freewill allows for the possibility of people doing evil things. God is therefore responsible for evil.

I get your question. It is you that is having trouble comprehending the answer that is right in front of you.

Let’s say "a creator" creates two creatures. He wants these creatures to have wills of their own so that they have their own soul, feelings, thoughts etc etc.

Yet this creator will not allow them to hurt each other.

The creator would be left with only two real options. A. Remove the part of their will that would cause them to hurt one another. Or…. B. Isolate the two from each other so that they were not capable of hurting each other.

Both option’s A and B accomplish the desire to not allow the creatures to hurt one another.

Yet both options also remove vital parts that are inherent to true freewill.

Option A directly removes the creatures freewill. Option B allows some freewill but imprisons the creatures and therefore removes freewill in the form of freedom.

 

[smothers]

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The creator would be left with only two real options....

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Why only two? Isn't God omnipotent?

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by smothers
I and my wife ARE the creator of my child. The joining of spermazoa and ovum created life where life did not exist.

That's like saying because you plant an acorn in the ground, that you and the ground are the 'creators' of an oak tree. You have niether created anything, nor are you making any sense. God is The Creator, and created every living thing. They are able to bring forth after their own kind, but creation is only accomplished by One Being, and He is not giving out any of His Secrets, yet.

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by smothers
God was wrong for forbidding Adam and Eve from killing Cain. Cain killed his brother therefore Adam and Eve should have killed Cain. Justice demands punishment.

God has yet to make a single mistake. He was demonstrating mercy when He allowed Cain to live, just like He was when He allowed Adam and Eve to live, when they violated His Command, since the wages of sin is death.

 

[Jukia]

Lets see, now smothers is also a "cartoon" (and Knight's avatar is what?--a real picture of him?) and a "moron". Well back to basic name calling I guess.

But seriously, folks, the question of evil is certainly one to discuss. As best I can figure out it does fall out of free will somehow. I can't really understand the triune God (who is not evil by the way) I buy; and the free will/evil issue is, I think, on the same level. One of the things I can buy into but never really understand.

As far as the killiing everyone in the flood issue, perhaps it is a bit easier to take when one realizes that there was no world wide flood.

It is interesting when people read Genesis literally then come up with all sorts of interpretations for other parts of the Bible (see earlier posts by smothers just brushed off by Knight)

I do have a problem with someone complaining about copy pasting arguments. All you need to do is look as some of the creationists (and non-creationists posts but mostly the creationists) on the origins section to find lots of pasting of pseudo creation science arguments.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by smothers
Quote:

The creator would be left with only two real options....

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Why only two? Isn't God omnipotent?

Again…. Omnipotence has limitations if it is real and logical.

For instance….

If God is sovereign.... is He sovereign over His own sovereignty? He must be if He is truly sovereign, yet that creates a limitation upon His own sovereignness.

Likewise omnipotence has logical limitations i.e., square triangles cannot be created by a rational God.

Therefore there are only two options: true freewill and untruefreewill – they both cannot coexist simultaneously within the same context and meaning.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Jukia, unless you have something intelligent to add... please move along.

 

[smothers]

Quote 1:

God is The Creator, and created every living thing

Quote 2:

God has yet to make a single mistake.

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Using your logic, when God creates a child with severe birth defects, he didn't make a mistake. He created a being to suffer or die early on purpose?

 

[smothers]

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Omnipotence has limitations

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So, God can do everything, but he can't do everything? That makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by smothers
Quote 1:

God is The Creator, and created every living thing

Quote 2:

God has yet to make a single mistake.

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Using your logic, when God creates a child with severe birth defects, he didn't make a mistake. He created a being to suffer or die early on purpose?

Changing the subject already?

I understand. What else can you do when your making an idiot of yourself in front of the whole world.

You really don’t know much about Christian theology do you?

God created man perfect (no gene defects etc.). Man could live forever with no defects as long as he didn’t choose to disobey God. Man chose to disobey God and therefore man was subject to death (defects). Then man…. Hey there is this book God wrote, it’s called the Bible you might want to read it someday.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by smothers
Quote:

Omnipotence has limitations

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So, God can do everything, but he can't do everything? That makes absolutely no sense.

God can do anything He chooses to do within what is rational and logical…. for God IS the very embodiment of logic and what is rational.

 

[Jukia]

My, touchy aren't we?

 

[smothers]

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You really don’t know much about Christian theology do you?

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And the Christians resort to sarcasm again.

I don't know much about Christian theology except for courses at a Christian college in Old Testament, New Testament, Soterology, Nuemenology.

I don't know much about Christian theology except for a minor in religion at a securlar university.

I understand the theology I just don't agree with the validity/logic of some of the key points.

 

[smothers]

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God can do anything He chooses to do within what is rational and logical…. for God IS the very embodiment of logic and what is rational.

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Again, you are placing limitations on God. Rationality and logic are constructs that humans understand. Your version of God is supposed to be omnipotent. Your version of God seems somewhat "human." It is almost as if man created God in man's image, not the other way around.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Jukia
My, touchy aren't we?

No thanks. :flamer:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by smothers
I don't know much about Christian theology except for courses at a Christian college in Old Testament, New Testament, Soterology, Nuemenology.

I don't know much about Christian theology except for a minor in religion at a securlar university.

I understand the theology I just don't agree with the validity/logic of some of the key points.

The question you asked about birth defects made it obvious that you either don't know much about Christian theology OR you are willingly ignorant.

For IF you knew much about Christian theology you could have easily answered your own question even if you didn't accept it as truth.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by smothers
Again, you are placing limitations on God.

Of course!

The God of the Bible has many limitations. For instance.... God is always righteous.

He has dispersed abroad, He has given to the poor;His righteousness endures forever; His horn will be exalted with honor. - Psalms 112:9

God NEVER tempts men to do evil...

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. - James 1:13-14

Only those that do not read His word or understand His reality would make the claim that God has ZERO limitations for even that claim is self refuting. For if God had ZERO limitations He would be severely limited in His limitations.

You continue...

Rationality and logic are constructs that humans understand. Your version of God is supposed to be omnipotent. Your version of God seems somewhat "human." It is almost as if man created God in man's image, not the other way around.

My version of God comes from God Himself therefore it is ultimately His version of Himself.

 

[smothers]

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For IF you knew much about Christian theology you could have easily answered your own question even if you didn't accept it as truth.

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I'm asking these questions to prove my origional point. God created a situation in which evil exists. He placed an apple in a garden and told Adam and Eve NOT to eat it. He probably had a good idea that they would eat it. This un-measurable thing called sin is somehow transmitted to unsuspecting, innocent babies. Again, God created a situation in which evil can thrive. Doesn't that make God responsible for evil through his willful neglect?

 

[Jukia]

God is not tempted by evil? Did not Satan tempt Christ?