ARCHIVE:God is NOT an OV'er (He said so)

[geoff]

Let me see, Jer 15:6 nacham, same as Gen 6:5-6..

it is the niphal stem:

1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted
1a) (Niphal)
1a1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion
1a2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent
1a3) to comfort oneself, be comforted
1a4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

God is weary with grieving over the sinfulness of humanity... NOT with changing His mind, because He hasnt done it.

A quick word study reveals the niphal stem of nacham to have the meaning 'sorry, grieving etc, for evil commited' (strongs alone is inadequate for this purpose, as it only tells us how the KJV translators understood it... although in this case they are correct).

Edgar,

How you do explain away the word 'destined' - it clearly says God 'destined' - if God destines people for one thing or another, then God destines people for one thing or another... please explain how this can be explained any other way.

 

[Edgar Caiña]

Hi! geoff,

First of all, I would like to say that I’ve no expertise or even a training in the original languages of the Scriptures, so I depend on the translations I have in my shelf.

Here’s my observation: The phrase “destined for” was also used by the NIV translators in Isaiah 9:5 but it is quite noticeable that the NASB translators only supplied the word “destined” to make the passage more understandable, but perhaps they didn’t see it in the original because they didn’t use it in Isaiah 9:5 as it is used in the NIV. Other translations such as the KJV and the RSV did not use the word.

Now, the way I understand this (God’s destining these people to something) is that this didn’t took place in past eternity. I understand that this action on the part of God only began when they continuously rejected God (the reason why He was so weary of grieving over their sinfulness). I would like to emphasize that the reason why God destined these people to death, sword, etc. was because of their rejection of Him and not because of some arbitrariness on the part of God. Now, if they were destined to death, sword, etc. from eternity past, it would be unintelligent of God to say He’s weary of grieving (unless He also destined Himself to grieve or when He said that He was saying something which He knows not really true at all) since He knew all along the way that these people will reject Him.

As I have stated in my previous post, I don’t see in this verse the idea that God destined ALL PEOPLE in the world to something or to some place (like heaven or hell) before they were even born.

Now, (and maybe this is what you're waiting for to hear ) I admit (and I think that no OV’er will deny) that there are some that God predestined to something, Christ is one example (Acts 2:23) and the Church is another (Eph. 1:4,5). But this doesn’t entail that God predestined ALL PEOPLE to something. The idea that “if God predestined some, He must have predestined all” is unwarranted in Scriptures. There are many biblical examples or cases that could be “applied” to ALL PEOPLE as well, but we don’t do that because we know it's an error to do it that way. So when we see in Scripture God predestining some people (let me ride with you for a while) to something, it would be, I THINK, erroneous to conclude that He also predestined ALL PEOPLE to something as well.

His blessings be upon you,

Edgar

 

[geoff]

Edgar,

You say that you admit that God might destine some, but not all...

Answer me this, does creation have a Goal, is there a purpose to which God is moving History? Does God have a final intention for creation?

If it is true that God does in fact have a plan, and a goal for creation, then hasnt He destined that outcome?

If God has in fact a destiny for creation, how can you say He does not have a plan for all people? Surely that means He does?

If He has a plan for all people, he must also have plans for individuals, as they make up the 'all people' group, and in order for this not to be the case we should not find any verses indicating individual, or small groups of individuals having a specific destiny.

If there are individuals who are destined, and groups of individuals who are destined, and all people who have a destiny, there is really no good reason to assume that God does not do this, especially when it is clear He does do it.

 

[1013]

I think what you meant to say edgar is that God does not have a specific plan for every specific individual.

 

[geoff]

Why dont we wait for edgar, instead of obfusicating

 

[Edgar Caiña]

SL #1 :God Loves You And Has A Wonder Plan For Your Life

SL #1 :God Loves You And Has A Wonder Plan For Your Life

Answer me this, does creation have a Goal, is there a purpose to which God is moving History? Does God have a final intention for creation?

God’s over-all goal for creation and history that I see in scriptures is nothing but the ultimate defeat of evil and the destruction of heaven and earth (2 Peter 3:7). But if you’re telling me that for God to arrive at such goal He needs to predestine or predetermine EVRYTHING in the created universe, then I don’t believe that. And if you’re telling me that EVERYTHING that happens in the world today is God’s plan, then I would categorically reject that. Because we all know that for the most part the world is dominated by evil. I can’t imagine how could some Christians believe that a rape and murder of a 4-year old girl to be God’s plan! That happened last year here in the Philippines. A 4-yr old was raped and then crushed her head to death with a brick by a drug addict. Was that God’s plan for that little girl? There's a news today here in Manila (i'll give the link once it becomes available in the internet) involving a little girl who was taken by a hostager. The negotiation apparently didn't materialize and she was stabbed to death several times. Was that God's plan for her? Did God destined her to that horrible death? If that is what you call God's specific plan for specific individuals, then I don't buy it.

…hasn’t He destined that outcome?

Do you believe that he destined the horrible demise of that little girl? Do you believe that He destined the gruesome death of those Christians who were burned to death while sleeping in a Hotel in Metro Manila after attending a Christian Seminar? Do you believe that He destined Saul to rebel against Him? Do you believe that He destined the injustices in the world? If He did destine the injustices in this world, why do we cry for justice and why did He promise justice at the end? (Luke 18:7-8)

…how can you say that He doesn’t have a plan for all people?

Well, God has plans and has an ultimate plan. But God having a plan doesn’t necessarily mean He meticulously predetermined or predestined EVERYTHING before creation. Though we have roles to play in His providential plan, it doesn’t require us to believe that He predestined or predetermined us to something in order for God to arrive at His goal. There are instances in scriptures what God wants, God doesn’t get. His purpose for us is that we do not disobey, but many times we do. Men thwart his purpose most of the times (Luke 7:30; Acts 13:46). When God someday announces, “Check mate!” It doesn’t necessarily mean that He predestined every move of His “opponent’s” pieces. If we believe that God is all-powerful and infinitely wise, it should be no problem to us believing that He can have a plan and yet never predestined EVERYTHING and EVERYONE to SOMETHING from eternity past.

 

[geoff]

Edgar:

But if you’re telling me that for God to arrive at such goal He needs to predestine or predetermine EVRYTHING in the created universe, then I don’t believe that

I didnt say EVERYTHING 'needs' to be predestined at all. YOu have made that conclusion yourself. Obviously that is where the evidence leads you so far. I would say that everything is 'foreknown', rather than predestined.

And if you’re telling me that EVERYTHING that happens in the world today is God’s plan, then I would categorically reject that. Because we all know that for the most part the world is dominated by evil.

What I said was, that God has a definite plan, and He is bringing about this plan. It would seem that part of this plan involves bringing individuals into the group know as 'The Israel Of God' - whom are His Children.
EVerything that happens is foreknown, but that is not to say it is predestined. Again, I did not say it was.

Did God destined her to that horrible death? If that is what you call God's specific plan for specific individuals, then I don't buy it.

God foreknew her death, but I have not said He predestined it... that is your conclusion.

Do you believe that he destined the horrible demise of that little girl? Do you believe that He destined the gruesome death of those Christians who were burned to death while sleeping in a Hotel in Metro Manila after attending a Christian Seminar? Do you believe that He destined Saul to rebel against Him? Do you believe that He destined the injustices in the world? If He did destine the injustices in this world, why do we cry for justice and why did He promise justice at the end? (Luke 18:7-8)

This so far is what is called a straw man, you are arguing against a view that I have not presented.

Well, God has plans and has an ultimate plan. But God having a plan doesn’t necessarily mean He meticulously predetermined or predestined EVERYTHING before creation.

Yes God has a plan, and a goal, not only for creation, but obviously, according to Scripture, for humanity, groups of humanity, and individuals. However, I have NOT said that every little thing is predestined.

BTW, 'eternity-past' is a concept that is senseless in respect for God. Thats another discussion though.

 

[Edgar Caiña]

I Missed That!

I Missed That!

God foreknew her death, but I have not said He predestined it... that is your conclusion

Hi geoff,

I just thought we're discussing the word "destine" (to mean predestine) from Jeremiah 15:2. Im sorry. Just like I've said to geralduk in the other post, being a Filipino who's not so very good in English, sometimes i really don't get what you're saying English people. Im sorry, I never thought you mean "foreknowledge."

So my post should have been addressed to a predestination guy and not to you. Im very sorry for missing the point.

I would say that everything is 'foreknown', rather than predestined.

EVerything that happens is foreknown, but that is not to say it is predestined.

I want make it clear now. Did you say everything and everything that happens is foreknown by God? When you say EVRYTHING do you mean ALL THINGS as in everything WITHOUT exception? Does this include even the future free choice of an individual?

 

[Yxboom]

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[1013]

Filipino who's not so very good in English, sometimes i really don't get what you're saying English people.

You're english is fine. confusion when discussing things with geoff happens quite naturally regardless of one's abilities in english

 

[Yxboom]

Isaiah 5:1-7 Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill: And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes. And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard. What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

 

[geoff]

Edgar,

The problem was not that we were discussing different things, we are in fact discussing 'destine' - however, you have created a false understanding of how I view 'destine' and are arguing against it.

When I mention foreknowledge, I do so to clear up your misunderstanding. Yes, God has perfect knowledge, and knowledge of all things. That is completely different to 'destining' all things.

I want make it clear now. Did you say everything and everything that happens is foreknown by God? When you say EVRYTHING do you mean ALL THINGS as in everything WITHOUT exception? Does this include even the future free choice of an individual?

Yes.

 

[Edgar Caiña]

Hi geoff,

however, you have created a false understanding of how I view 'destine' and are arguing against it.

Not so. I did not create a false understanding of it. The usual understanding of the word "destine" is different from the usual understanding of the word "foreknowledge". Perhaps, and maybe, that's the reason why calssical Arminianism believes in the Exhaustive Definite Foreknowledge of God while rejecting individual and cosmic predestination.

I looked up the dictionary this morning and I don't see any similarity between the two words. Here's what the dictionary says:

destine 1: to decree beforehand: PREDETERMINE 2a: to designate, assign, or dedicate in advance 2b: to direct, devise, or set apart for a specific purpose or place.

foreknow : to have previous knowledge of : known beforehand esp. by paranormal means or by revelation.

Meriam Webster'sCollegiate Dictionary, 10th Edition

Now, before we go further, will you please provide me a reference (biblical or non-biblical) where the two words mean exactly the same thing? Otherwise, I'll take it to mean that you're the one confusing things here.

One last thing, you said that I...

created a false understanding of how I (i.e., you) view 'destine'

If that's the case here, then I can also have my own view of what a dog is when in fact Im referring to a cat. In that case 1013 was right with his last post. In that case also, Im out of here. God bless you real good.

 

[geoff]

Edgar,

I am not discussing 'foreknow' with you, but destine. I brought up 'foreknow' in order to clarify the misunderstanding that I believe God has predestined (caused etc) every little thing from the beginning to the end. I never claimed this to be the case, but it seems to be what you are arguing against.

You brought up Jeremiah, which I showed does not mean what you assumed it means. I then pointed out that there is a destiny for creation, for humanity, and for individuals within humanity, both as groups of the elect and non elect, as well simple individuals. This was in respect to you saying that God does not have a destiny for individuals.

If you want to discuss foreknow, I will gladly talk to you about it, but at this stage, I have only mentioned it for clarification.

 

[Edgar Caiña]

geoff,

That's exactly what i thought; that we're discussing "destine." In fact I just responded to what you said

hasnt He destined that outcome?

If there are individuals who are destined, and groups of individuals who are destined, and all people who have a destiny, there is really no good reason to assume that God does not do this

Even in your previous posts I knew you were discussing "destine"

3-18-2002

No, it says we are DESTINED.
No, it says DESTINED FOR....


03-20-2002
Back to the original verse.

God uses the word DESTINED. Also "those" and "they" and "them" to indicate specific peoples and groups of peoples made up of individuals.

Destined indicates caused. Verse 3-4 is enlightening: ...

05-29-2002
Edgar,

How you do explain away the word 'destined' - it clearly says God 'destined' - if God destines people for one thing or another, then God destines people for one thing or another... please explain how this can be explained any other way.

So I knew all along very well that we're discussing destine, which according to you, God destined people to something based on the above quotes. Then I asked you

Do you believe that he destined the horrible demise of that little girl? Do you believe that He destined the gruesome death of those Christians who were burned to death while sleeping in a Hotel in Metro Manila after attending a Christian Seminar? Do you believe that He destined Saul to rebel against Him? Do you believe that He destined the injustices in the world? If He did destine the injustices in this world, why do we cry for justice and why did He promise justice at the end? (Luke 18:7-8)

But you charged me of using a "straw man", me arguing against a view that you did not present. But you said it

How you do explain away the word 'destined' - it clearly says God 'destined' - if God destines people for one thing or another, then God destines people for one thing or another

I would like to ask now, were people destined to something or not?

Edgar

 

[geoff]

Edgar,

I said NO.

I said I believe God FOREKNEW these things, but not that He had necessarily 'destined' them.

 

[Edgar Caiña]

And what do you mean by these

God will do, appoint, make.
God will cause these things.
God has destined these things

How do you get around that?

How you do explain away the word 'destined' - it clearly says God 'destined' - if God destines people for one thing or another, then God destines people for one thing or another

 

[geoff]

I mean, "it clearly says God 'destined' - if God destines people for one thing or another, then God destines people for one thing or another"

 

[Edgar Caiña]

No further question, your honor!

 

[geoff]

I have no idea what you mean by that