ARCHIVE:God is NOT an OV'er (He said so)

[drdeutsch]

Jaltus,

You might study Greek, but that doesn't make you a Koine Greek expert. Bob Hill has been studying Greek for about 40-50 years. That doesn't necessarily make him an expert, either.

In fact, let's throw out all references but the bible. Examine every instance of thelema (and it's derivatives) and every instance of boule (and it's derivatives). There is an obvious, very distinct difference in meaning.

Even translators realized this. Why do you think thelema is usually translated as "will," "desire," or "pleasure;" and boule is translated as "counsel," "determinate counsel," or "purpose"?

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[1013]

This may be beneficial to the open view and even arminianism to make this distinction but even if its not in the greek, that doesn't mean it can't have a place in our theological explanations.

even calvinists make such a distinction different wills in God calling them the righteous will and the soverign will to explain away contradictions for their system when they insist that God controls everything and always gets what he wants and yet expresses that he did not want something to turn out a way that it did. Of course it doesn't help them because you still have two contradictory wills.

But we just make the distinction of God's overarching plan and the small scale plans that work towards that large scale plan. and that involves no contradictions as that we see in the calvinistic system.

 

[geoff]

Actually, Jaltus demonstrates a far consistantly higher level of theological understanding and greek scholarship, and has credentials to back it up..

As far as I can determine He is reasonably objective as well, which makes him several levels above anyone else around here, and miles beyond Bob Hill.

 

[jobeth]

1013:
An "actual possibility" is an oxymoron.

Because what is actual is what is no longer mere possibility, but is a a "given" and a fact. And a possibility is by definition that which has not yet been actualized and is not a "given" and not a fact.

A possibility may or may not ever become a fact. But once a possibility is actualized, then it becomes a fact.

All actualized possibilities are facts (true).

Possibilities are merely imaginary and conceptual, as opposed to actualities which are real and factual.

Do you see the difference?

There is not a possibility (less than 100%) that what God has determined (ordained) will come to pass. Rather, there is a 100% possibility (i.e a certainty) that what God has determined (ordained) will come to pass. Because given anything less than 100% certainty, God could not know it as a true fact.

If all you know is the possibilities, then you don't know for certain. How can God be called Omniscient (All-knowing) if all He knows is possibilities, which are not certain and are not fact?

 

[drdeutsch]

I don't doubt Jaltus' erudite nature or credentials. I've read his posts, I've argued with him: he's proven himself to be very learned, quite gentlemanly, and a great Bible scholar.

My main point was that, although Jaltus studies Koine Greek, anybody - even you and I, Geoff - could look in the Greek New Testament, find every instance of thelema and boule, and notice a distinct difference in use. As 1013 pointed out, rather than a "secret will" and a "revealed will" or whatever, it makes quite a bit of sense, given the context that each word is used it, to lable them as God's "intentional will" and His "counsel."

You shouldn't let your personal feelings get in the way of someone elses work. So you don't like Bob Hill. So what? I can see that you don't like quite a few people. Why don't you like him, Geoff? Because he's an OV'er?

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[geoff]

I dont have a problem with him personally... What I dont like is hyperdispensationalism and the OV. I believe they are anti-scripture and false.

What i DO like is that he kicked me off his forum for not agreeing with Him. Would you like to know WHY I like it? Or can you guess?

 

[drdeutsch]

Please, Geoff, indulge the group.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[geoff]

It confirms a lack of objectivity.

 

[drdeutsch]

How about posting a link to the thread on his forum that got you kicked off? I'd like to read your arguments and Bob Hill's for myself.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[geoff]

I cant.. dont have access anymore..

it wouldnt help anyway, as the comments were made in email.. which I also dont have anymore.

 

[drdeutsch]

Fair enough. I rarely go on that forum anymore, but I never did notice any posts by a "Geoff" or by anyone from New Zealand.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

EDIT: Woohoo! Page 31!

 

[geoff]

I wasnt using geoff. I tried to go there and post objectively and without the baggage that goes with my name on this forum.

Even trying as hard as I could to be diplomatic... didnt work, like running up against a brick wall.

They didnt know it was 'geoff' until i told them.

 

[1013]

An "actual possibility" is an oxymoron.

in the language of possible worlds ontology, I believe that what you are saying is actually true. But I have something specific in mind when I use "actual possibility" that warrants the term. It is a possibility that is not just logically possible, ie coherent and could've come about had God desired but won't because he has determined everything, but rather it is a possibility that truly has a chance of coming true in the real world though it may not come to pass.

Possibilities are merely imaginary and conceptual

what i'm talking about is more than that. it is something that could actually take place but might not.

If all you know is the possibilities, then you don't know for certain.

exactly! you'd know it as uncertain.

There is not a possibility (less than 100%) that what God has determined (ordained) will come to pass.

then not only do I hold that the omniscience of God as I view it is far greater than that of Jaltus or Geoff's view, but your's as well, for in some situations there are many viable possibilities thus knowledge to be had increases exponentially.

How can God be called Omniscient (All-knowing) if all He knows is possibilities, which are not certain and are not fact?

first I just want to make it clear that I don't think that God knows only possibilities. He knows some things as settled.

Now how indeed can God be all knowing if in some circumstances, he knows not certainties but a multitude of possibilities? Because it is a truth of the matter that there are many viable possibilities all of which have the potential to become actualized. It may be false that there is a fact of the matter about which particular possibility will come to pass until that fact of the matter becomes settled.

consider the difference of a metaphysical uncertainty and an epistemic uncertainty. We have many epistemic uncertainties in our lives where we may not know what will come to pass and we may think that it is possible that various different things may occur when in fact it is already settled as to what will pass. But a metaphysical uncertainty is an uncertainty that is not a matter of limited perspective but rather it is built into the fabric of reality. to know the truth of it is to know that it is uncertain. to think that there is a specific fact of the matter of how it will turn out is necessarily a misconception and an item of ignorance. Not knowledge. Even if you were lucky enough to geuss the outcome, if you did not apprehend your guess as a guess, your were wrong about the certainty of it, and if God were to wind the clock back and set the universe exactly as it had been before the outcome was settled, it very well might have turned out differently.

 

[Jaltus]

geoff and drd,

I appreciate your evaluation of the gifts God has given me. Hopefully it will be used according to His plan, for His glory.

drd,

My credentials are as follows:

Graduated with a degree in Classical Greek (BS, I also majored in other things).
M Div from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School
TAed (meaning actually taught about 30 mins a day) Greek Exegesis this summer.

Current:
Ph D student at TEDS in NT.
Teaching Fellow at TEDS, lecturing in Koine Greek at the Master's level.

All in all I have been working in Greek (Koine one year less than classical) for just shy a decade now. (ok, now I am feeling a bit old, hehe)

As far as I can tell, this verse breaks down the alleged distinction that Calvinists and others wnat between boule and thelema:

Luke 7:30 "But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)"

"God's purpose" is "tan boulan tou theou."

Therefore, both "thelema" and "boule" can be effected by mankind, so the distinction is not legitamite.

Boule occurs 11 times in the NT, thelema 62. Acts has by far the highest concentration of boule, so I'd like to take an example from Acts 13 which is quite illustrative of my point.

Acts 13:22 "After removing Saul, he made David their king. He testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'"


Acts 13:36 "For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed."

The first is thelema, the second is boule. Notice that boule is replacing thelema in the formulation, showing a direct parallel.

 

[drdeutsch]

Jaltus,

I never doubted your credentials: Your arguments and your ability to support your beliefs speak for themselves.

Thanks for the verses and the extra info on the Greek. I will do some research.

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[jobeth]

1013:
You said:

Because it is a truth of the matter that there are many viable possibilities all of which have the potential to become actualized.

I flatly disagree. God knows what will happen in the future and wrote it down for us to see and compare when it does happen.
Matt 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

How do you know for certain that many viable possibilities actually exist? How do you know that many so-called "possibilities" are not in actuality "impossible"?

You said:

But a metaphysical uncertainty is an uncertainty that is not a matter of limited perspective but rather it is built into the fabric of reality.

Yeah, right. And pigs can fly.

I certainly agree that human beings have no independent knowledge or certainty about future events, other than the details God has revealed to us. We don't know, but God knows. And if we want to know for sure, we must ask Him, because He knows.

Jer 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

Just because created beings (humans and angels) are unable to predict the outcome of a roll of dice, or the exact moment an atom will decay, doesn't mean that God does not know. He does know.

Prov 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

In the things God has kept secret, the uncertainty principal applies to us. But it does not apply to God.

John 3:20 God...knoweth all things.
Psa 94:11 The LORD knows our thoughts,
Mat 6:8 ...your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Josh 22:22 "The LORD, God of gods! The LORD, God of gods! He knows.

You said:

to think that there is a specific fact of the matter of how it will turn out is necessarily a misconception and an item of ignorance.

No. You think even God does not know? No way. He does, too, know. To say that there is anything God does not know is a demonstration of misconception and ignorance.
To know Him as He truly is, is to know that He knows.

We cannot know whether the sun will come up in the morning. But God knows both the hour and the day when it won't.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away,
2 Pet 2:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

[1013]

God knows what will happen in the future and wrote it down for us to see and compare when it does happen.
Matt 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

As I've said, God knows the future as partly settled. There is no reason to think that every detail of the future other than what God has told us is settled.

Parts of Mathew 24 are vague and do not require every detail of the future to be settled. It reqauires some of the future to be settled but not all of it.

How do you know for certain that many viable possibilities actually exist?

It seems the best way to interpret the scriptures and my experience. 1st Corinthians 10:13, my namesake, is a prime example of scripture that makes no sense without viable multiple possibilities. WE are told that God will always provide a way out of sin. But Christians do sin. In much of the New testament we see a command for specifically Christians to stop sinning. So if there was no possibility for them not to sin, 1st Corinthians 10:13 is misleading.

Jer 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

Is God going to tell us every single detail of the future as settled?

who did God ever tell every single detail of how the future would be settled to. That is absurd and for God to tell us things that we do not know hardly requires knowledge of the future as completely settled.

Just because created beings (humans and angels) are unable to predict the outcome of a roll of dice, or the exact moment an atom will decay, doesn't mean that God does not know. He does know.

just because ignorance sometimes accounts for our uncertainties doesn't mean that ignorance is the cause of all uncertainties. sometimes uncertainty IS the FACT of the matter and all possible answers as certain are false.

Prov 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

proverbs are general sayings and are not absolutes. Take 15:22 for example

Plans fail for lack of counsel,
but with many advisers they succeed.

plans can still fail even with the help of many advisors. Just look at the history of the American Presidency.

John 3:20 God...knoweth all things.

I truly believe God knows all things as I have expressed here in this thread. If part of the future is unsettled, God knows it as it truly is, unsettled, and he knows all of the ways in which it can be settled. He knows everything there is to know about that event.

Psa 94:11 The LORD knows our thoughts,

and it is quite arguable that the end of a process of deliberation may not have been settled until a certain point in the deliberation.

Mat 6:8 ...your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

an exhaustive knowledge of how every detail of the future will be settled is far more than necessary for that.

from me to think that there is a specific fact of the matter of how it will turn out is necessarily a misconception and an item of ignorance.

No. You think even God does not know?

Jobeth, I was describing a state of affairs where God cannot know a fact of the matter of how an event will be settled because there is no fact of the matter. You can disagree that there is ever such a state of affairs, but you can't agree that even if there was such a state of affairs, God would still know how it would turn out. you would be saying in essence that even though there is no fact of the matter, God would still know the fact of the matter. That is a contradiction because for God to know a fact means there is a fact. I'm saying that there is no fact, and if that is true, then it is an empty critisism to say that God does not know when there is no item of knowledge to be had to begin with. God knows everything. I stand by that.

 

[geoff]

If God can know ANY event in the future as settled, He must know the surrounding events to that event completely, or He can NOT know the settled event as true. He then must also know the intimate details of those events, ad infinitum.

If God knows ANY event, then He knows ALL events. To know ANY event, also requires knowing the outcome of human free choice, of there is NO thing that God can know with any certainty. Thus OV is dead in the water.

a. God knows an event with certainty.
b. God knows all surrounding events in order to be certain
c. God knows all events with certainty.

 

[drdeutsch]

Geoff,

According to your arguments, the Second Coming of Christ - which has been predestined and is foreknown by God - means that God must know every single event leading up to that, thus, that the event is dependent upon human actions, which it is not. The second coming of Christ is part of God's ultimate plan and will happen no matter what we, as moral freewill agents, do.

"The day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night" (1 Th 5:2)
You're saying that God must know every single action in the history and future of the universe in order that Christ might come again "like a thief in the night"?

God bless,
Dr. Deutsch

 

[geoff]

No, the event of the second coming is not dependant on human action, however, the destining of it was.

I presented a verse earlier that no one commented on which showed a preplanned event by God, which was dependant on human action. Just one of these makes OV incredibly unlikely, and yet there are hundreds of them in Scripture.

The argument still stands. You will need to demonstrate How God can know an event as settled when He is can not be certain about anything leading up to or around that event.