ARCHIVE: Fool is only fooling himself

[genuineoriginal]

You lost me in there somewhere but if that was supposed to be some kind of shot at me then I'll respond with;
Fool asks "is it ever OK to take a sword and slaughter an infant"
Genuineoriginal and stipe respond with "he must have a hidden agenda!"
And now I see you call me dishonest because I won't tell you the hidden agenda that you accuse me of having.
Did you ever consider that It might just be a question?
It's pretty funny that the best your theology can come up with is these pathetic attacks.

fool, can you answer what a yes answer and a no answer mean to your question?

Or will this reveal your hidden agenda?

 

[genuineoriginal]

God, as absolute sovereign creator, would certainly have the right to govern the universe and settle its ills and bring justice however he wants. Granting that absolute "right" has no bearing on the question of whether or not what he actually does is moral and good, however. If an all-powerful God chooses to accomplish his aims through genocide and infant smiting, that communicates something about him (and about those who stand behind him). And most of us pagans and apostates here are saying: what it says is not very good.

Thank you Balder for being honest. It is more than I can say for fool and Granite. You have posed the idea that God is doing something that is not moral and good.

 

[fool]

There is a third choice:
Abraham prayed to God to spare the wicked. Moses prayed to God to spare the wicked. God said in Ezekiel that He was looking for someone to stand before Him and plead the case of the wicked so that they would not be destroyed.

If you replace wicked in that statement innocent then you'll finally be on the same page.

 

[fool]

fool, can you answer what a yes answer and a no answer mean to your question?

What was the question?

Or will this reveal your hidden agenda?

I don't have a hidden agenda.
Listen to to fist 2 minutes of the first show again.
You'll hear me say something like "I agree with you completly" I laid my cards on the table right there.

 

[Balder]

Thank you Balder for being honest. It is more than I can say for fool and Granite. You have posed the idea that God is doing something that is not moral and good.

It is my understanding that fool and Granite are saying something similar to me. But rather than speak for them, I'll just state my perspective here (at the risk of repeating myself):

If God commanded these things and acted in these ways, then yes, I am saying that I think God is not behaving morally. He may be acting on his prerogative as the most powerful being in existence, but he is not acting morally or encouraging moral responses to earthly problems.

However, as a Christian, when I criticized these depictions of God, I did not believe I was actually criticizing God. I believed I was criticizing limited and fallacious human portraits of him. While I am no longer Christian, and do not subscribe to that worldview anymore, I find I am still fighting that old fight: trying to defend God against those who contend he is a genocidal tyrant and a baby smiter.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Originally Posted by fool

You lost me in there somewhere but if that was supposed to be some kind of shot at me then I'll respond with;
Fool asks "is it ever OK to take a sword and slaughter an infant"
Genuineoriginal and stipe respond with "he must have a hidden agenda!"
And now I see you call me dishonest because I won't tell you the hidden agenda that you accuse me of having.
Did you ever consider that It might just be a question?
It's pretty funny that the best your theology can come up with is these pathetic attacks.

fool, can you answer what a yes answer and a no answer mean to your question?

Or will this reveal your hidden agenda?

What was the question?

I don't have a hidden agenda.
Listen to to fist 2 minutes of the first show again.
You'll hear me say something like "I agree with you completly" I laid my cards on the table right there.

fool, can you answer what a yes answer and a no answer mean to your question?

Or will this reveal your hidden agenda?

 

[fool]

fool, can you answer what a yes answer and a no answer mean to your question?

The ramifications of any individuals answer are something each answerer must contemplate for oneself.

Or will this reveal your hidden agenda?

I have no hidden agenda, I'm not convinced I have any agenda, I just do what I do.

 

[genuineoriginal]

It is my understanding that fool and Granite are saying something similar to me. But rather than speak for them, I'll just state my perspective here (at the risk of repeating myself):

If God commanded these things and acted in these ways, then yes, I am saying that I think God is not behaving morally. He may be acting on his prerogative as the most powerful being in existence, but he is not acting morally or encouraging moral responses to earthly problems.

However, as a Christian, when I criticized these depictions of God, I did not believe I was actually criticizing God. I believed I was criticizing limited and fallacious human portraits of him. While I am no longer Christian, and do not subscribe to that worldview anymore, I find I am still fighting that old fight: trying to defend God against those who contend he is a genocidal tyrant and a baby smiter.

Since you have been following this thread, you are aware of my position. I believe that God had justifiable reasons for having every man, woman, child, and beast killed, and all the goods inside of the city burned except for the gold.

Focusing on the death of the infants is a good way of looking away from the reasons why it was done. It is also a good way of putting ourselves higher than God.

You probably heard about God putting Job in his place when he questioned God's right to do what He does:

Job 35
1Elihu spake moreover, and said,
2Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?​

That is your position in this thread.

Job 38
1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.​

I can not answer God's question. I was not with Him when He did this, or the many other things He asked Job.

Job 42
1Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
2I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
3Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.​

I refuse to be one of the people who think I can stand before the Great White Throne of God and tell Him that He has no right to judge me because He is a baby killer and His followers are baby killers.

 

[genuineoriginal]

If you replace wicked in that statement innocent then you'll finally be on the same page.

So, you are innocent?

 

[fool]

If you replace wicked in that statement innocent then you'll finally be on the same page.

Don't forget this.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The ramifications of any individuals answer are something each answerer must contemplate for oneself.

I have no hidden agenda, I'm not convinced I have any agenda, I just do what I do.

Since you say there is no answer for your question, I agree with you, and will not answer.

Now, If you will be honest and explain what YOU think a yes answer means, and what a no answer means, then we can see if there is any point in your question.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You are deliberately avoiding the question--because it is impossible to give a straight answer. Answering such a horrific scenario requires spin control and every bit of euphemistic acrobatics as you can muster.

For me, killing an infant isn't a moral dilemma. It doesn't pose a single question or hesitation in my mind: such an act is never defensible. That I don't need to equivocate, and that a Christian does, says far more about you than me.

And on Judgment Day, you will try to tell God to His face that He is a babykiller.
:kookoo:

 

[genuineoriginal]

If you replace wicked in that statement innocent then you'll finally be on the same page.

So, you are innocent?

If you replace wicked in that statement innocent then you'll finally be on the same page.

Don't forget this.

So, you are innocent?

 

[fool]

So, you are innocent?

Who said anything about me?
Do I have to be innocent to lobby on behalf of an innocent?
Is your God deaf to words of truth because of the lips they come from?
That's exactly what you and stipe are trying to do here.
You think that if you impeach me that my question will go away.
It won't.

 

[Balder]

You probably heard about God putting Job in his place when he questioned God's right to do what He does:
Job 35
1Elihu spake moreover, and said,
2Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

That is your position in this thread.

Since I don't believe the Bible represents the words of God Himself, but rather just the thoughts of men, I think a more accurate characterization of my position would be that I am questioning men's justification of their own evil acts.

Best wishes,

Balder

 

[fool]

Since you say there is no answer for your question, I agree with you, and will not answer.

YOU LIE!
I NEVER SAID THERE WAS NO ANSWER!
THE CORRECT ANSWER IS "I WON'T DO THAT!"
You ask what it means, we're still trying to figure that out.

Now, If you will be honest and explain what YOU think a yes answer means, and what a no answer means, then we can see if there is any point in your question.

My question is my question, if you want my position it's in all caps a little ways up.
Feel free to tell me that I hate God cause I won't smote the little ones, that's the best Bob could come up with, why would I expect any better from you?

 

[fool]

And on Judgment Day, you will try to tell God to His face that He is a babykiller.
:kookoo:

If he confeses to the deed and he ain't got one real good story then Yes, I'll tell em that to his face.

 

[koban]

And on Judgment Day, you will try to tell God to His face that He is a babykiller.
:kookoo:

Who did He kill with the flood?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Who said anything about me?

You are the one asking the question about killing babies. You must have a reason.

Do I have to be innocent to lobby on behalf of an innocent?

Let him who is without sin . . . Surely you have heard that before.

Is your God deaf to words of truth because of the lips they come from?

When you start speaking words of truth, let me know.

That's exactly what you and stipe are trying to do here.

I am standing up for God's right to judge the wicked nations. I can't speak for stipe.

You think that if you impeach me that my question will go away.

No. I think that if you were honest with yourself, you would realize that the only remedy for your wickedness is Jesus.

It won't.

Ah....pride. Doesn't that go before the fall?

 

[genuineoriginal]

If God commanded these things and acted in these ways, then yes, I am saying that I think God is not behaving morally. He may be acting on his prerogative as the most powerful being in existence, but he is not acting morally or encouraging moral responses to earthly problems.

Since I don't believe the Bible represents the words of God Himself, but rather just the thoughts of men, I think a more accurate characterization of my position would be that I am questioning men's justification of their own evil acts.

Best wishes,

Balder

Thank you for trying to deal fairly with your position on this subject. I see you have two positions, one in which you consider the implications if God commanded these things, and the one in which you question whether God is being used as an excuse for men doing evil.
Best wishes, Balder