ARCHIVE: Fool is only fooling himself

[Balder]

"more morally examplary" on what scale?

What is Balders scale of morality? Where does it come from? What is its name? Who told you about the scale? Why should we be compelled to believe your scale is accurate?

Well, the scale I use is the Buddhist one. A number of other religions have similar ones. Jesus' life and many of his teachings appear to reflect this scale as well -- which emphasizes compassion, wisdom, gentleness, mercy, patience, charity -- but it appears (to me) that Jesus' life and teachings conflict with the characters depicted in the OT and in John's book of Revelation.

 

[Aimiel]

...but it appears (to me) that Jesus' life and teachings conflict with the characters depicted in the OT and in John's book of Revelation.

Jesus isn't going to be in His Role as Lamb of God when He returns to the earth, He will be The Lion of Judah, exercising God's Judgement upon sin, when His Mystery has been revealed and everyone left on the earth has either accepted or rejected His Salvation. He will not always strive with sin, He will put it to and end. He chose to offer salvation to us, but if we refuse, He will not force that salvation on anyone. He did not come to this earth to judge sin, He came to offer salvation. When He comes back the next time, it will be to set up His Kingdom, which will be on this earth for 1,000 years. After that, He will raise up from the dead everyone who has ever lived, and the books will be opened and everyone will be called into account for every single idle word they have ever spoken. No one will have one single thing to say in their own defense. Only those whose sins have been washed away by Jesus' Blood will be allowed to enter into Heaven. :shocked:

 

[allsmiles]

Jesus isn't going to be in His Role as Lamb of God when He returns to the earth, He will be The Lion of Judah, exercising God's Judgement upon sin, when His Mystery has been revealed and everyone left on the earth has either accepted or rejected His Salvation. He will not always strive with sin, He will put it to and end. He chose to offer salvation to us, but if we refuse, He will not force that salvation on anyone. He did not come to this earth to judge sin, He came to offer salvation. When He comes back the next time, it will be to set up His Kingdom, which will be on this earth for 1,000 years. After that, He will raise up from the dead everyone who has ever lived, and the books will be opened and everyone will be called into account for every single idle word they have ever spoken. No one will have one single thing to say in their own defense. Only those whose sins have been washed away by Jesus' Blood will be allowed to enter into Heaven. :shocked:

:blabla:

:yawn:

wouldn't want to make any premature claims here but it looks like this thread is officially being feasted upon by the vultures of TOL.

 

[genuineoriginal]

IMO, the significance of Sun Tzu, or any number of leaders and teachers from non-Christian religions, or even of some saints from Christian tradition, is that it is relatively easy to find individuals who are more morally examplary and just than the deity described in the OT appears to be on many occasions.

And the quest for a utopia goes on. Here is the result of a human version of utopia: :cow: :cow: :cow: :cow:

This, to me, is a good indicator that the "character" we are dealing with in the OT stories is ultimately a human one -- the construct of fallible human beings. His actions and motivations are disturbingly limited, clumsy, brutal, and short-sighted. The "how dare you question me" is the tactic of a Wizard of Oz, booming out from behind a curtain which hides a frail and imperfect human being.

God may be great and just, but this character in these brutal OT stories is a dim reflection of him, at best, painted with clumsy human pigments, more reflective of the painter than the numinous reality he seeks to capture.

Once again, the critics of God are accusing men of creating God in their image.
Here is the real story:

Genesis 1
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.​

 

[Nathon Detroit]

:blabla:

:yawn:

wouldn't want to make any premature claims here but it looks like this thread is officially being feasted upon by the vultures of TOL.

What does that mean?

I thought that Aimiel's post was excellent. He further demonstrated that Jesus is not different than He was in the Old Testament.

Jesus is a God of wrath and vengeance.

 

[genuineoriginal]

actually, i misspoke just now when i asked if you could imagine Jesus giving the order... God didn't give the order at all, Joshua did.



i agree, but the city was taken, the battle was won. Joshua dropped the nuke after the victory.



Sun Tzu says otherwise.

Don't know much about Sun Tzu, do you?
You missed this post

 

[genuineoriginal]

:blabla:

:yawn:

wouldn't want to make any premature claims here but it looks like this thread is officially being feasted upon by the vultures of TOL.

Revelation 19
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.​

Here is the real feasting by vultures. Which side are you on?

 

[Balder]

Yes, if I recall correctly, Aimiel believes Jesus will speak and his words will cause people to explode and blood to burst out of them.

:thumb:

 

[allsmiles]

Revelation 19
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.​

:squint:

Here is the real feasting by vultures. Which side are you on?

okay... how is this not mythological?

Don't know much about Sun Tzu, do you?
You missed this post

hey, guess what? i don't have to believe in a literal person for the ideas attributed to him to make sense :duh:

 

[fool]

That wasn't really an answer to the question I asked.

I asked why the difference?

Why destroy one enemy more harshly than another?

That's a great answer to the question you asked.
In the inherited lands it was kill all, that way no one could ever come along later and say "this is the land of my fathers" But outside Isreal they conducted business like that chinese guy Allsmilies keeps bringing up. They'd offer a franchise first, pay us and you're in the club. Here's two possible scenarios.
1. Wicked people occupied an area, and needed to be smote, so that area is the promised land cause it'll be empty when the smotings done.
2. Isreal is this area here, so anybody in it must be smote.
Are we smoting the people cause they're in Isreal?
Or is this Isreal cause this is where the people need smoting?

 

[koban]

You are mixing up the degree of the sentence. God is able to judge an entire city for it's wickedness. God is willing to spare the wicked city if even 10 righteous people could be found in it.

Apparantly, the only righteous people in Jericho were Rahab's family, so God judged the entire city, and pronounced a death sentence on the entire city.

Infants aren't righteous?

 

[koban]

"more morally examplary" on what scale?

What is Balders scale of morality? Where does it come from? What is its name? Who told you about the scale? Why should we be compelled to believe your scale is accurate?

Psssst - there's this really old source of morality that says "Thou Shalt Not Murder".

I really don't know what else you would call butchering infants in a captured, non-resisting populace.

 

[allsmiles]

Apparantly, the only righteous people in Jericho were Rahab's family, so God judged the entire city, and pronounced a death sentence on the entire city.

actually, read the story... hell, read the whole chapter and you'll find that Yahweh didn't give the death sentence on the whole city. Yahweh commanded Joshua to take the king and the fighting men but his orders never went beyond that. Joshua gave the order to massacre everyone.

 

[koban]

So then... you agree with Balder that the USA was guilty of murder when we dropped bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Did we intentionally kill innocent non-combatants?

What else would you call it?

 

[koban]

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

So, how come He took a break from the bloodshed 2000 years ago? The biblical era jews were looking for an OT saviour to recue them from the oppression of the Romans. Most rejected Christ because He did not fit their idea of what a redeemer should be (and had been, in their history)

 

[genuineoriginal]

:squint:



okay... how is this not mythological?



hey, guess what? i don't have to believe in a literal person for the ideas attributed to him to make sense :duh:

:dizzy:
I am not sure I believe what I am seeing!

allsmiles argues against a point being mythological, then turns around and praises a mythological person for having great ideas??????????
:help: Am I the only person who sees the contradiction???

 

[Balder]

actually, read the story... hell, read the whole chapter and you'll find that Yahweh didn't give the death sentence on the whole city. Yahweh commanded Joshua to take the king and the fighting men but his orders never went beyond that. Joshua gave the order to massacre everyone.

I believe there are instances where the Biblical authors claim the commands came directly from God to massacre civilians. No time tonight to hunt for them though.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Infants aren't righteous?

They didn't save Sodom and Gomorrah, did they?

Genesis 18
23And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes:
28Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.​

Genesis 19
24Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.​

I am pretty sure that there were at least 10 infants in those cities.

 

[genuineoriginal]

So, how come He took a break from the bloodshed 2000 years ago? The biblical era jews were looking for an OT saviour to recue them from the oppression of the Romans. Most rejected Christ because He did not fit their idea of what a redeemer should be (and had been, in their history)

This looks like a side issue to me. Maybe it should have it's own thread?

 

[genuineoriginal]

actually, read the story... hell, read the whole chapter and you'll find that Yahweh didn't give the death sentence on the whole city. Yahweh commanded Joshua to take the king and the fighting men but his orders never went beyond that. Joshua gave the order to massacre everyone.

:readthis:

Deuteronomy 7
1When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
. . .
16And thou shalt consume all the people which the LORD thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them: neither shalt thou serve their gods; for that will be a snare unto thee.
. . .
23But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed.
. . .

Deuteronomy 9
1Hear, O Israel: Thou art to pass over Jordan this day, to go in to possess nations greater and mightier than thyself, cities great and fenced up to heaven,
2A people great and tall, the children of the Anakims, whom thou knowest, and of whom thou hast heard say, Who can stand before the children of Anak!
3Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
4Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
5Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.​

allsmiles, I believed you missed a few paragraphs again.