Answering old threads thread

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
I don't prescribe to utilitarianism; that is just Idol's characterization. I don't concern myself with idol. She is Ninety percent hot air.
Plain. I'm happy to be wrong about this Skeeter and if I am it's because you've changed your tune.

Here's you for example:

... Your standards are no less subjective than anyone else's. Why do you claim otherwise? You do not have a manual with reliable, internally consistent, precise or nuanced handling of relevant dilemmas. ...

... I apply reason and evidence with one basic presupposition.
Which is what?

It is moral to endeavor to maximize well-being and minimize misery.
Yours or everyone's?

Everyone in balance.

And who decides the right balance? You or me?
The facts in any given situation and the application of logic determine the result. In many cases, it will be clear that I am right. There will be some closer calls when your point of view approaches mine in its level of cogency.

Your arrogance aside, this is utilitarian thought. The thought of a utilitarian.

But so what if I'm wrong? I'm more than happy to be wrong about this. If I'm wrong then this trolley problem shouldn't be difficult for you Skeeter, let er rip:
I hate trolley problems. But I think that in this case we can imagine one that's actually easy. Imagine there are two people [presumably fertile] man and [presumably fertile] wife, and no one else, and if they don't multiply then well that's it for the human race.

But the wife resists and is uninterested.

Should the man override his wife's decision?

If not, what about when she's getting on in years and is nearing the end of her natural fertility?

An even easier trolley problem here would be a single woman and ten men, all presumably fertile, but the woman is uninterested in marrying any of them. Should her right against being raped be broken, in order to ensure the survival of the species? If she doesn't comply, and is not forced, then mankind goes extinct.

I say that in both cases, the answer is dead easy, and that this is what an absolute right looks like, this is what we mean by an absolute right. Even if it means the end of mankind (iow no matter the consequences), she still unilaterally reserves her natural moral right against being raped, end of story. And in these trolley problems, it's the end of mankind as well. Oh well----that's what makes it an absolute right.

And oh yeah, us men protecting this right of theirs is what makes them powerful. It is their power, and it exists because we honor and preserve it. If ever we violate it, we have not only taken their power from them, which is theft, but we also have become violent criminals, in certain circumstances deserving of execution, and we are also subject to being killed or maimed by the victim or by anybody else nearby in any attempt we make to rape.
tldr basically there's only one fertile woman alive but there are men but she's a lesbian and she refuses to marry a man. If she gets her druthers, the whole human species dies out forever.

Should she be forced? What say you?
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
I can't begin to describe to you how boring it is having to deal with yours and rusha's and the bananahead's misandry

In no Christian marriage will a spouse deny their partner
Would you just as confidently agree therefore that in no Christian marriage will a husband deliberately elicit emission to pornography? Maybe I can understand your position better if you say "yes of course."

Refusing sex to your spouse is a form of fraud.
Fair enough. Agreed.
If continued, the marriage is fraudulent.
Then sue for divorce. Or don't; try to reconcile.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Plain. I'm happy to be wrong about this Skeeter and if I am it's because you've changed your tune.

Here's you for example:

























Your arrogance aside, this is utilitarian thought. The thought of a utilitarian.

But so what if I'm wrong? I'm more than happy to be wrong about this. If I'm wrong then this trolley problem shouldn't be difficult for you Skeeter, let er rip:

tldr basically there's only one fertile woman alive but there are men but she's a lesbian and she refuses to marry a man. If she gets her druthers, the whole human species dies out forever.

Should she be forced? What say you?
Haven't we run this experiment with panda bears?
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Would you just as confidently agree therefore that in no Christian marriage will a husband deliberately elicit emission to pornography? Maybe I can understand your position better if you say "yes of course."
Yes of course.
The same is true with homosexuality, extra marital affairs, abortion, divorce, pedophilia etc.

All the wonderful things modern feminism has brought our society in the name of "empowering" women
Fair enough. Agreed.

Then sue for divorce. Or don't; try to reconcile.
Reconciliation with counseling from church elders would be my advice
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Isn't a command a "forcing"? If someone in authority says, "Do this," and you are obliged to obey under threat of punishment of some sort, is that not forced? Like stopping at a stop sign, for instance.
Wow, the lengths you go to to try and "justify" your position, whereby a husband can and even "rightfully" force sex upon his wife and it's somehow not rape.

How is that loving or cherishing exactly?
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member

Consent to be married, loved, cherrished ....not consent to be raped.
You base your argument on a faulty premise.

Does a woman consent to be treated like a whore?
Does a woman consent to be cheated on?
Does she consent to being slapped when dinner is late?

Is she consenting to be forced to have sex when she isn't in the mood, or when her husband has been treating her like crap?

As a member of the body of Christ, I rebuke you, JR.
Change your mind before you get married, or you will be marrying under false pretenses.

Forced sex is never found in any marriage vow ever.
If you can't talk your wife into having sex, you've failed as a husband.
Frankly, some of the ilk who deny that women can be raped in a marriage would probably deny them the vote as well. Truly pathetic.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Wow, the lengths you go to to try and "justify" your position, whereby a husband can and even "rightfully" force sex upon his wife and it's somehow not rape.

How is that loving or cherishing exactly?
I'll tell you how it's loving.
God has every right to force us to do exactly as he wants. Instead, he allows us to do what he doesn't want (all have sinned and come short of the glory of God), at a penalty of death (the wages of sin is death). But he sent his own begotten son, who never did anything wrong, to die in our place, so that we might live (but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our lord), as evidenced by his resurrection from the dead, which we celebrated today.

True love is exhibited by having the right to do something, but being willing to do something else, more beneficial to the recipient of my love, which is less convenient to me at my discretion. So while I may have the right to sex with my wife whether she wants to or not, my love is manifested more clearly by choosing not to force her, but to gently woo her, like Christ does with his bride.
Ephesians 5:24 (KJV)
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.

Ephesians 5:25 (KJV)
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Ephesians 5:29 (KJV)
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Ephesians 5:32 (KJV)
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Not rejected. Just insisting scripture be kept in context, and people aren't claiming it's saying what it isn't.

For instance, read further.

1 Cor. 7:6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.
29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;
30 And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not;
31 And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.
32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

Is there any suggestion, whatsoever, that a man can force his wife to have sex with him?

Keep looking, boys, you won't find it in God's word.
Well, he's hardly gonna please his wife by forcing himself on her so that's a no go. If he actually cared for her, not only would he not do so, he'd be repulsed by the notion also.

Not going well for the "no rape in marriage crowd" from scripture itself.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
I'll tell you how it's loving.
God has every right to force us to do exactly as he wants. Instead, he allows us to do what he doesn't want (all have sinned and come short of the glory of God), at a penalty of death (the wages of sin is death). But he sent his own begotten son, who never did anything wrong, to die in our place, so that we might live (but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our lord), as evidenced by his resurrection from the dead, which we celebrated today.

True love is exhibited by having the right to do something, but being willing to do something else, more beneficial to the recipient of my love, which is less convenient to me at my discretion. So while I may have the right to sex with my wife whether she wants to or not, my love is manifested more clearly by choosing not to force her, but to gently woo her, like Christ does with his bride.
Ephesians 5:24 (KJV)
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.

Ephesians 5:25 (KJV)
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Ephesians 5:29 (KJV)
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Ephesians 5:32 (KJV)
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
So, you're telling me how it's "loving" to force your wife into sex?

Um, no, you aren't.

The Bible itself gives the most eloquent description of love there is. What you advocate is anything but.
 

Derf

Well-known member
So, you're telling me how it's "loving" to force your wife into sex?

Um, no, you aren't.

The Bible itself gives the most eloquent description of love there is. What you advocate is anything but.
But if you reject God's loving offer, death is your reward--which he has every right to do.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Thanks for the sermon.

Funny how I didn't need one or any aid in being able to recognize how unloving it is to force sex on a partner but hey, thanks anyway!
Love can be more than, but it is never less than, respecting people's rights. Disrespecting rights is disrespecting people. And it is unloving.

But murderers aren't exactly the same kind of unloving as rapists and car thieves. The law acknowledges the evil, and it handles it according to something like the lasting damage done by the crime. As far as I'm concerned, the crime is first defined through it being a rights violation of some kind though, not whether someone experienced harm or loss (which can occur from bad weather, or by someone's non-negligent accident). Then when we acknowledge that rape is a rights violation, we have to judge how severe a crime it is, even though with some cases of rape there is no physical damage (such as in a perjury crime where there is no physical bodily harm done), we still handle the crime as if it is very severe indeed.
But murderers do end a life.

But then in 1775 a 38 year old Patrick Henry said, "Give me liberty, or give me death." But liberty then meant exactly what 1776's Declaration of Independence expressed in prose, it is a 'shorthand' for, '[All men are created equal and Endowed with rights],' the American moral theory. He was saying this is worth fighting a war over. Our morals is worth sacrificing myself. Our servicemen over the 24 decades of our country's independence (23 with our current written Constitution) are the giants upon whose shoulders we Americans stand. Our current armed forces are their successors. If you want peace prepare for war. Peace is what we all want. Where there is no justice there is no peace. Our right to self govern comes from us being responsible for justice. If justice is not honored then we are failing, but to protect justice you need peace, and for peace you need guns.

This is just all because we have an inbuilt right to govern ourselves, because we are all each of us responsible for justice. If the current arrangement or state of affairs or political situation is not defending justice, then we become culpable ourselves unless we do something to stop it. Up to and including violent (guns) rebellion.
But largely, the right to bear arms can't be seriously restricted because every woman who's a rapist's target ought to have had the ability to arm herself and well, before he ever showed up. All she has to do to start is learn how to shoot into the ocean, that's the only marksmanship she need worry about at first. The ocean is that way, so don't shoot in the opposite direction, for starters.

You might have to shoot a rapist between the eyes, that's possible, but hopefully all you'd really need to do, is to shoot into the ocean, which isn't that hard to do. You just have to shoot in the right direction generally and it'll get in the ocean. You just have to get away safely and if you run away blasting shots backward (shooting into the ocean) then he hopefully just won't follow you. If one of those shots happens to hit him between the eyes then he's going to die.

That's the most severe harm possible. But again as far as I'm concerned you first determine what is the rights violation? then look at any damages. You don't start with damages when determining whether there's a crime, you start with rights, and whether they've been broken.​
Love doesn't always look stereotypical. Sometimes love is a bald faced lie. Sometimes love is an accidental shooting of an innocent child, because a rapist's victim pulled a gun out and ran away from him firing wildly backward, not hitting the rapist, but accidentally killing an innocent and non-participating child. That's love on the part of the victim defending herself and trying to get away from a rapist, she's loving herself. It's also love whoever permitted her to get and carry that gun. And it's love for the gun dealer to outfit her with a good quality gun that she is comfortable shooting into the ocean at least.

If you can run away and fire a gun back into the ocean, that's not nothing. That can be good enough. If the pursuing rapist stops pursuing, then his victim has successfully defended herself. If she kills him, that's just self defense, a justified killing. That word justice is in there, that's part of protecting justice, is protecting the right to bear arms, so that a rapist's victim target shoots him dead in a justified killing, instead of her getting raped.

That's love. Not the rapist, he's not loving, but every other party in honoring the right to bear arms is being loving.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I can't begin to describe to you how boring it is having to deal with yours and rusha's and the bananahead's misandry

In no Christian marriage will a spouse deny their partner


I'm not the least bit surprised you find it "boring" to be confronted by your lust of the flesh, and your apparent inability to control your violent urges.....especially concerning he is to NOURISH and CHERISH her.....as the Lord the church.

Eph. 5:
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Being "head' means you're to lead.....not force.
It means you are to show loving kindness....which would lead to her having a change of mind.

Use the scripture, don't abuse it.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Thanks for the sermon.

Funny how I didn't need one or any aid in being able to recognize how unloving it is to force sex on a partner but hey, thanks anyway!
It's hard to take some of these people seriously, isn't it?

Preach raping your wife out of one side of their mouth and the gospel out of the other. ;)
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I'll tell you how it's loving.
God has every right to force us to do exactly as he wants. Instead, he allows us to do what he doesn't want (all have sinned and come short of the glory of God), at a penalty of death (the wages of sin is death). But he sent his own begotten son, who never did anything wrong, to die in our place, so that we might live (but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our lord), as evidenced by his resurrection from the dead, which we celebrated today.

True love is exhibited by having the right to do something, but being willing to do something else, more beneficial to the recipient of my love, which is less convenient to me at my discretion. So while I may have the right to sex with my wife whether she wants to or not, my love is manifested more clearly by choosing not to force her, but to gently woo her, like Christ does with his bride.
Ephesians 5:24 (KJV)
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.

Ephesians 5:25 (KJV)
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Ephesians 5:29 (KJV)
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

Ephesians 5:32 (KJV)
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Ah, the tune is changing. God never crosses our free will, so men will still rape their wives, and beat them up, and love himself more than her. If he's saved, God will deal with that man.....or his wife will do what is right. Leave him. This case was closed long ago. Pretend like you meant that all along, I'm fine with that.
 
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