ECT All Things Are Lawful For Me

[Nihilo]

Judas never believed.
. . .
Judas never believed and never had genuine faith. His faith was false.

What a terrible waste, to be in the closest company with the Maker in the flesh, and not believe in Him. :doh:

"Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

 

[Derf]

I have searched the Scriptures and I certainly cannot say that he ever had true faith. In fact, by what the Lord Jesus said at Matthew 26:24 I cannot agree with anyone who says that it is certain that he was saved. So I wouldn't tell him that he need not worry about what he had done.

I agree with you--that if we search scripture we don't find any confession of faith like Peter's or Thomas's.

But the other apostles didn't have those scriptures we have to assess Judas's faith. What if you were there with them, before the gospel accounts were written (written with hindsight)? Put yourself in their shoes for a moment. What would you have thought of Judas' faith? How would you have counseled him about his eternal destiny? He was a follower of Christ. He participated in spreading the message of repentance and the promise of the kingdom. He probably worked miracles and cast out demons in Jesus name.

What would you have told Judas to encourage him in his faith?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What would you have told Judas to encourage him in his faith?

You are determined to change the subject. This has nothing to do with eternal security.

Can you answer a question for me?

Have you been given eternal life?

 

[Derf]

You are determined to change the subject. This has nothing to do with eternal security.

Can you answer a question for me?

Have you been given eternal life?

No, I'm not changing the subject. I'd like to know how your view applies. Can you answer my question?

Regarding your question for me, yes, I have.

 

[glorydaz]

But all that aside, I hope Jerry will answer my question about how he would have counseled Judas about his everlasting state. Certainly he had gone out with the 12 previously to tell people about the kingdom, and he likely participated in the miracles they did (not sure about this one, but the other disciples didn't know he was different at the time). So all of his external shell would have indicated that he was saved and bound for glory. If he had a short time of despondence, where it looked like his faith was wavering, doesn't it seem likely that he could have been counseled by other believers that he was assured of eternal life?

And if we could be wrong about Judas, couldn't we be wrong about any supposed believer? The difference was not one that we could necessarily have put our finger on, but there were two signs. 1. that he was a thief, and 2. that he didn't really believe. (The second was only known by God and Judas).

John 12:5-6KJV Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.​

I'm not so sure the attitude behind this wasn't apparent. Why did Jesus put Judas in charge of the moneybag when He'd been teaching that the love of money is the root of all evil? I think He knew Judas would not be able to hide his love of money from everyone. I've seen many who have claimed to be believers whose heart is at odds with their claims.

Anyway, I don't think Jerry is meaning to assure any particular person that they have eternal security, but the fact that those who are saved do have it. As Paul say, Examine yourself whether you be in the faith. We always must be encouraging people to do that, especially when we see them looking longingly at a moneybag. :angel:

 

[musterion]

Judas never believed. He was a follower that capitalized on the profit of following Jesus...
The bottom line? Judas never believed and never had genuine faith. His faith was false.

How would that have gone unnoticed?

Does the Bible tell us, or even suggest, that Judas was not given the miraculous giftings that the other disciples received?

Look very carefully at Matt 10:1-8.

 

[God's Truth]

How would that have gone unnoticed?

Does the Bible tell us, or even suggest, that Judas was not given the miraculous giftings that the other disciples received?

Look very carefully at Matt 10:1-8.

Right! Judas believed---but he lacked something, he did NOT OBEY!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, I'm not changing the subject. I'd like to know how your view applies. Can you answer my question?

Yes, you are changing the subject. Instead of talking about what the Scriptures say about eternal security you want to talk about what I would do in regard to a hypothetical situation which has nothing at all to do with eternal security.

You just refuse to face the fact that the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish.

 

[Derf]

John 12:5-6KJV Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.​

I'm not so sure the attitude behind this wasn't apparent. Why did Jesus put Judas in charge of the moneybag when He'd been teaching that the love of money is the root of all evil? I think He knew Judas would not be able to hide his love of money from everyone. I've seen many who have claimed to be believers whose heart is at odds with their claims.

Anyway, I don't think Jerry is meaning to assure any particular person that they have eternal security, but the fact that those who are saved do have it. As Paul say, Examine yourself whether you be in the faith. We always must be encouraging people to do that, especially when we see them looking longingly at a moneybag. :angel:

Hi glorydaz, thanks for the comment. I agree with you--that we should examine ourselves, and it's not a bad thing to tell others to examine themselves.

What do we examine about ourselves?

Assurance of assurance is what it seems Jerry is trying to convey. I don't disagree with Jerry that the saved have eternal life, or that those with eternal life actually have eternal life. But if you tell someone that is displaying the kind of behavior that is associated with unbelief, or one that once believed and then turned back (Lu 9:62), that he is assured of salvation, we subvert the message of Paul and the other apostles, not to mention the gospel Jesus preached.

 

[God's Truth]

Hi glorydaz, thanks for the comment. I agree with you--that we should examine ourselves, and it's not a bad thing to tell others to examine themselves.

What do we examine about ourselves?

Assurance of assurance is what it seems Jerry is trying to convey. I don't disagree with Jerry that the saved have eternal life, or that those with eternal life actually have eternal life. But if you tell someone that is displaying the kind of behavior that is associated with unbelief, or one that once believed and then turned back (Lu 9:62), that he is assured of salvation, we subvert the message of Paul and the other apostles, not to mention the gospel Jesus preached.

If anyone has to examine themselves, then it means they are not saved.

The saved live through Jesus, and that is done by obeying Jesus.

If you have to examine yourself to see something, then you were not living as you should and need to receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

How would that have gone unnoticed?

Does the Bible tell us, or even suggest, that Judas was not given the miraculous giftings that the other disciples received?

Look very carefully at Matt 10:1-8.

"Freely you have received, freely give"

I must ponder this... it implies much! (John 17:12)

(2 Pt. 2:21; John 13:27-35; Lk. 22:48; Mt. 26:24)

I have much to ponder.

 

[God's Truth]

"Freely you have received, freely give"

I must ponder this... it implies much! (John 17:12)

Yeah ponder that, and then ask for forgiveness for going against those who preach obedience.

I will still help you, even though you prosecuted me and attacked me disgracefully.

 

[musterion]

"Freely you have received, freely give"

I must ponder this... it implies much! (John 17:12)

(2 Pt. 2:21; John 13:27-35; Lk. 22:48; Mt. 26:24)

I have much to ponder.

That's not my point.

Verses 1, 4, 5, 8.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Yeah ponder that, and then ask for forgiveness for going against those who preach obedience.

I will still help you, even though you prosecuted me and attacked me disgracefully.

You don't understand this? You are betraying Him with a kiss by being a thief and not "freely giving"! It will be better that you had never been born! You are robbing Him with your theft!

 

[God's Truth]

You don't understand this? You are betraying Him with a kiss by being a thief and not "freely giving"! It will be better that you had never been born! You are robbing Him with your theft!

What don't you get that Judas did not do right?

What don't you get that he kept stealing money from the collection bag?

What don't you get that he betrayed Jesus by pretending to be a friend?

What don't you get that he was sorry about it, but didn't believe he could ever be forgiven for what he had done?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

That's not my point.

Verses 1, 4, 5, 8.

Forgive me Musty... I noted the power to cast out the unclean spirits and Simon being in league as a betrayer. However... the specificity is that they were to only go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Keep on me that I might fully understand this "musterion".

 

[God's Truth]

Forgive me Musty... I noted the power to cast out the unclean spirits and Simon being in league as a betrayer. However... the specificity is that they were to only go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Keep on me that I might fully understand this "musterion".

You are going to the wrong one for help.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

You are going to the wrong one for help.

You are a fool to not see that Musterion is contrite and leveled by God, thus fit to assist. You would be wise to listen to him.

 

[God's Truth]

You are a fool to not see that Musterion is contrite and leveled by God, thus fit to assist. You would be wise to listen to him.

This is so sad and pathetic.

 

[musterion]

Forgive me Musty... I noted the power to cast out the unclean spirits and Simon being in league as a betrayer. However... the specificity is that they were to only go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Keep on me that I might fully understand this "musterion".

The point is that Judas was enabled to do everything the other 11 did.