ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
i've seen people bowl perfect games (earl anthony comes to mind)
every time, they do something different - after all, they're not automatons
perfect, every time
but changing
Absolute Divine Immutability: Does Anyone Really Believe It?
- Thread starter Clete
- Start date
i've seen people bowl perfect games (earl anthony comes to mind)
every time, they do something different - after all, they're not automatons
perfect, every time
but changing
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Aimiel
Well-known member
Amen. Jesus being The Lamb of God, slain from the foundation of the world tells me that God, knowing the end from the beginning: NEVER changes. I cannot grasp that type of knowledge, while I do accept that God knows way more than we can even begin to guess (yet). When we see Him, we will be 'like' Him, because we'll see Him as He is. Until then all we can do is to speculate using what He has told us and what He gives us through His Spirit. The Holy Spirit will lead us into ALL Truth. We're on our way, but until He reveals the rest of His Mystery we are in the dark.
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
By way of crude analogy... When Fonzie held up a comb to his hair and then looked at it in the mirror, he realized that he didn't need to change his hair because it was already perfect. Isn't God at least as cool as Fonzie's hair? What would God need or want to change about Himself if He is already perfect?
Why make a change unless the change is an improvement?
If God cannot improve upon Himself, in what sense does He change?
The word evolution is basically defined as "change over time." In fact, Merriam-Webster lists "change" as one of several synonyms of evolution.
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I'm pretty sure that every response but this one either landed firmly in the "not immutable" category or was in some way wishy-washy in support of the absolute immutability stance.
You, on the other hand, gave an emphatic "Yes." in support of the absolute immutability of God and gave a link to some verses that you feel like support that position.
This, is the normal reaction I get whenever I ask this question. Nearly everyone wants to qualify their answer but there seems to be at least one person in every crowd that steps up and states unequivocally that they believe that God does not change in any way whatsoever.
I really think this doctrine is on the way out with only a relative handful of hangers on, many of whom haven't thought through the ramifications of the doctrine.
Be that as it may, I'd like to test you , Bright Raven, just to see if in fact you do believe what you think you believe. Here's a hand full of the questions that generally lead people who think they hold to absolute immutability to modify their stance. I'm curious whether you will do the same.
- Do you consider the incarnation a change, if not in substance, at least in form?
- Has God always been a man?
- Was God ever a man?
- Is God still a man today?
- Did God really die on the cross?
- Does Jesus have a glorified physical body today?
- Has He ever had one?
- Has He always had one?
You can answer each question one at a time or you can answer them in a more general sense, whichever you prefer. The point here being that it seems that even the simplest reading of the most important events in the Bible seem to directly contradict the notion that God is utterly incapable of changing. Please explain how the incarnation, death and resurrection/glorification of God the Son is compatible with the doctrine of immutability.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Do you consider the incarnation a change, if not in substance, at least in form? Yes
Has God always been a man? No
Was God ever a man? Yes
Is God still a man today? Partially, yes
Did God really die on the cross? Yes, God the Son did.
Does Jesus have a glorified physical body today? Yes
Has He ever had one? Yes
Has He always had one? No
I still consider God to be immutable. Has the Father ever Changed? Should the God-Man Jesus be placed in the same category? If you do not believe God to be immutable is there not contradictions in the scriptures. Just curious. For me there are not.
Has God always been a man? No
Was God ever a man? Yes
Is God still a man today? Partially, yes
Did God really die on the cross? Yes, God the Son did.
Does Jesus have a glorified physical body today? Yes
Has He ever had one? Yes
Has He always had one? No
I still consider God to be immutable. Has the Father ever Changed? Should the God-Man Jesus be placed in the same category? If you do not believe God to be immutable is there not contradictions in the scriptures. Just curious. For me there are not.
Cedarbay
New member
I answered yes, Clete.
The Christian church answered the question of the immutability of Christ's two natures, in the Creed of Chalcedon. Please see this fine document here:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html
Also, please see Col. 2:9. Christ is unchangeable God and yet a real man.
I Tim. 3:16
I appreciate this discussion, as it brings great joy to the saints of God.
The Christian church answered the question of the immutability of Christ's two natures, in the Creed of Chalcedon. Please see this fine document here:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html
Also, please see Col. 2:9. Christ is unchangeable God and yet a real man.
I Tim. 3:16
I appreciate this discussion, as it brings great joy to the saints of God.
Nothing. However, that is not to say He must not change to remain perfect. You've assumed the truth of the unstated assumption that to remain perfect means nothing can change.
Because doing things is good. :idunno:
In every sense that everything He does involves an update to His history.
Nope.
Evolution is the idea that all things are descended from a universal common ancestor by means f random mutation and natural selection.
Evolutionists want everything to be evolution so they define it as "change."
Full Definition of EVOLUTION -- 1: one of a set of prescribed movements; 2: a process of change in a certain direction.
Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evolution
If evolution is defined as "a process of change in a certain direction" then your position is that God "evolves".
No, you are going to have to quit saying that God evolves.
It just opens the door for you to push your religion more forcibly via equivocation.
I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS POST!!!!
I mean wow! If everyone on this site answered genuine questions with genuine answers like this - holy cow!
Why?
I understand that you sort of answered this at the end of your post but I was hoping you could elaborate on just why it is you hold to such a doctrine in light of the answers you gave to my questions.
Well this is an interesting question. The simplest answer is, yes He has. That is assuming we are still implying the existence of the phrase "in any way whatsoever" at the end of that question.
There are two senses in which the answer is yes.
The first is that the bible, the book of Genesis in particular, is full of examples of God doing all sorts of things that He had never done before, changing His mind, being pleased then angry, etc.
The second, and I think more important sense in which the answer is yes is that we only worship one God. The Trinity is made up of three distinct persons but they are not separate from one another in the same sense that you are separate from your parents, for example. The Bible is not clear on just how that works. There is clearly missing information in regards to the exact nature of the Trinity but what is clear is there is only one God and Jesus is that God.
Further, even if we wanted to ignore the doctrine of the Trinity for the sake of argument, I think that God the Son dying implies a change in God the Father because up till that death took place, God the Father and God the Son had never been apart. But we read in the Gospels that the Father forsook Jesus when the sin of the world has been laid upon Him. Thus God the Son was separated from the Father. This is what it means to die, by the way. When your spirit separates from your body, that's physical death. When your spirit is separated from God that's spiritual death. Thus Jesus died in every sense of the word. So, I'd call that a change of colossal importance in both the Son and the Father, wouldn't you?
If He isn't in the same category then His death was in vain. Its precisely because it was God who was being sacrificed that make His death sufficient to pay the sin debt of the entire world.
What do you mean "For me there are not."? There either is or there isn't, right?
And no, there isn't any contradiction whatsoever because the Bible does not teach the Classical understanding of Divine Immutability. God doesn't change in His righteousness and wisdom, which is to say that God's character does not change. He is the same person today as He has always been. He always has been righteous, wise, just, loving, personal and kind and He always will be.
The idea that God cannot change at all in any way whatsoever comes straight out of the mouth of Aristotle not the Bible. The argument is called the argument from perfection. God is perfect thus no change could improve Him and being perfect He cannot change for the worse. God therefore cannot change. That's the whole argument! And no such argument exists in Scripture at all. The assumption is that there is no such thing as a change that is neutral in respect to "perfection" nor is there ever any effort to define what is meant by "perfect". More importantly, the very same argument made by any famous Calvinist you care to name, including Calvin himself, is a near verbatim quote of the argument made by Aristotle, a pagan Greek philosopher.
Resting in Him,
Clete
I found this brief dictionary entry for the term "Immutability of God":
https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=34109
A thorough article on the subject is available here:
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/01/catholic-dogmas-of-gods-immutability.html
Absolute changelessness. That is mutable which goes from one condition to another. In consequence of its finite nature, every creature is mutable. God is unchangeable because he is infinite. Mutability implies potentiality, composition, and imperfection, and is therefore not reconcilable with God as pure actuality, the absolutely simple and infinitely perfect Being. When God acts outside of himself, as in the creation of the world, he does not produce a new effect in himself, but enters on a new realization of the eternal decision of his divine will. The decree of creation is as eternal and immutable as the Divine Essence with which it is really identical; only its effect, the created world, is temporal and changeable. (Etym. Latin immutabilis, unchangeable; changeless.)
https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=34109
A thorough article on the subject is available here:
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2009/01/catholic-dogmas-of-gods-immutability.html
That has always been His immutable nature to do those things
How can perfect change?
That sounds all warm 'n fuzzy...yet, how does one "do those things" while subsequently maintaining immutability?
God cannot impress upon us His divine love and His vengeful wrath without corresponding changes. The idea of an immutable God is simply wishful nonsense.
Thats my answer too.
True
