About who does Isaiah 53 speak?

[Elia]

You worship the Talmud as if it were "the Word of God".

Bs"d

Nobody worships the Talmud. Nobody thinks the Talmud is God and bows down to it.

You falsely claimed that you only use and refer to the Tanakh alone.

Show me where I have refered to the Talmud.

Whom is Daniel referring to in the following passage?
“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed."
Daniel 7:13-14 NASB

Let's look about who it does not speak: Did your messiah have glory and a kingdom?

Did all all the peoples, nations and men of every language serve him?

If the answer is "no", then this does not speak about your messiah.

Then we have yet another messianic prophecy, NOT fulfilled by your messiah.

Does God purposely mislead the readers of his divine word, leading them to falsely worship a "manlike" figure? (re: Joshua worshiped the "Captain of the Lord's Host").

Joshua bowed down to him, but he didn't think he was God, so he didn't do idolatry.

 

[beameup]

Bs"d
Nobody worships the Talmud. Nobody thinks the Talmud is God and bows down to it.
Show me where I have refered to the Talmud.

All Orthodox Jews venerate the Talmud as the Word of God. They refer to it above all else for their "doctrine".

Let's look about who it does not speak: Did your messiah have glory and a kingdom?
Did all all the peoples, nations and men of every language serve him?
If the answer is "no", then this does not speak about your messiah.
Then we have yet another messianic prophecy, NOT fulfilled by your messiah.

We're not talking about "my messiah", we are talking about THE MESSIAH of Israel. This one:
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. - Isa 53:6

Joshua bowed down to him, but he didn't think he was God, so he didn't do idolatry.

The text says Joshua worshipped. Is God a deceiver? Did God send someone, knowing that he would be worshipped "falsely" by Joshua?
I believe that there are many examples of a "manlike" individual being worshipped in the Tanakh.
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel:
for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. Genesis 32:30
And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

You are just "blowing smoke", trying to deceive.

 

[God's Truth]

So Israel holds Israel as of no account. What's the problem with that?



Since when, when A sins, does B gets punished for it??

It is very simple: When Israel sins, then Israel gets punished. That concept you see all over the Tanach.

The concept that when Israel sins God Himself has to be murdered by His creatures before He can forgive them, is NOWHERE to be found in the Tanach.

When the Jews sin, the Jews gets punished, and through the punishment the sin is erased.



It doesn't speak about the whole history of the Jews, but about a timeperiod in which they didn't do violence or deceit.
But they did do idolatry, and for that they got punished.

"The remnant of Israel shall do no unrighteousness
And speak no lies,
Nor shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth;"
Zephaniah 3:13



How could it not? When somebody sins, that person gets punished. Sometimes with death. In that case he makes himself an offering for (his own) sin.

Isaiah uses poetic language. In one sentence he addresses Israel directly as "they" or "we", and also through the metaphor "the servant".

That may give the impression that he is speaking about different subjects, but that is not the case.
He is just no so very exact with pronouns, as we can see in for instance Isaiah 42.

Nobody in his right mind will deny that Isaiah 42 speaks about Israel, and that the servant there is Israel, because that is plainly mentioned several times in the text.

However, Isaiah addresses that servant with different pronouns, even in the same sentence:

"Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? Did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore He hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."

We see here that Isaiah, clearly speaking about the Jewish people, jumps in this short piece of text from "we" to "they" to "he". Three different incompatible pronouns, both singular and plural, all for the Jewish people.

That doesn't mean we're dealing here with three different subjects, that's just the writing style of Isaiah, and the same goes for Isaiah 53.

Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world once and for all.

The law God gave to Moses included animal sacrifices to atone for their souls. It was a teaching tool and shadow of what was coming, Jesus Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

Bs"d

Here in Isaiah 1:5-6, it speaks about a literal person: "Why should you be stricken again?
You will revolt more and more.
The whole head is sick,
And the whole heart faints.
6
From the sole of the foot even to the head,
There is no soundness in it,
But wounds and bruises and putrefying sores;
They have not been closed or bound up,
Or soothed with ointment."

But read the context, and you see also that speaks about Israel.

Jesus is the anti type for Israel.

Israel is called God's firstborn.

Jesus is God's firstborn.

 

[God's Truth]

Bs"d

And then only silence remained.

That's because that whole "300 messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC" is a big scam.

There are no 300 messianic prophecies. What some Christians do is ripping Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah what so ever out of context, and presenting them as "fulfilled messianic prophecies".

And that is of course lying and deceit.

I go deeper into that subject on this page: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/324x0

What do you think means more, to be circumcised in the flesh, or in the heart?

What means more, to observe special days, or to observe the Christ all day everyday?

What means more, to eat a special diet, do various external washings, and sacrifice animals to clean yourself, or to be cleaned inside and out once and for all?

What is better, to go to an earthly temple, or to become the temple yourself?

 

[God's Truth]

Bs"d

I believe in many more than 2 messiahs. But of course, they were not THE messiah.

That the messiah didn't come yet we know because of the fact that the messianic prophecies are not fulfilled.

In order to get around that some Christians rip 365 texts which have no bearing on the messiah what so ever out of context, and present them as "365 fulfilled messianic prophecies".

But everybody with two working braincells understand that is total nonsense, and lies and deceit.

So why do Christians do that? For the simple reason that there is no proof whatsoever that their messiah was the real messiah. For one thing, he didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies.

And just like there is no proof he was the messiah, even so there is no proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.

And when somebody takes a closer look at Daniel 9, then he sees that it cannot speak about JC.

And that settles the fate of Christianity.

You do not even obey what God says in the Old Testament.

You have no blood to offer and no temple.

When was the last prophet the Jews had?

Why doesn't God speak to your kind anymore?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JudgeRightly ,

Come on Trevor, it's not like it's some obscure verse. I even referenced it above:
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 6:23

We may both accept this verse, but most probably we will differ if we compare our overall beliefs of how and what was accomplished in the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. I do not think that you have answered my previous post. Also I will compare some of the things that you stated in your previous post. Although I said I agreed with the first part, I have on reflection some reservations concerning this part:

And even if a man was perfect, does he have the power to raise himself from the dead? No. If he's dead, he can't even bring himself back to life, let alone every other human.

Jesus was a perfect man, and your reasoning has laid the basis of a wrong concept, even though it is true that it was God the Father that raised him from the dead. Now that he is risen, God the Father has given Jesus the power to raise from the dead every other human, or those humans he chooses. Jesus was THE perfect man, because he never sinned, he always did what pleased the Father, he was full of grace and truth.

Don't you think that God Himself is the most valuable and precious entity in all of existence? I think so. He's the only one who's value is higher than what is required for the payment necessary for the punishment of sin. He has infinite value. If you think otherwise, please, provide an alternative payment, and then tell God that there was a better way.

Now, since we've established that nothing short of God's death would be enough payment for sin, how then can you say that Jesus, who died for the sins of the world, who literally became sin for us, is not God, if the only thing valuable enough to pay for it is God Himself? If Jesus was not God, then His death could not even save one man from sin, because He does not have infinite value.

Jesus is God the Son. He has to be, otherwise sin would not have been paid for when He died.

Looking at this again, firstly God cannot die. And where do you get the concept of “payment for sin”? If sins are paid for, then are they actually forgiven?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Elia]

All Orthodox Jews venerate the Talmud as the Word of God. They refer to it above all else for their "doctrine".

Bs"d

So you cannot give a single example of any Jew worshipping the Talmud.

We're not talking about "my messiah", we are talking about THE MESSIAH of Israel. This one:
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. - Isa 53:6t

Isaiah 53 speakst about THE SERVANT OF GOD. Please show me in the Tanach where the messiah is referred to as "the servant of God".

The text says Joshua worshipped. Is God a deceiver? Did God send someone, knowing that he would be worshipped "falsely" by Joshua?

No, God is not a deceiver. The Christian Bible translations are deceivers. What it says is that Joshua BOWED DOWN to the angel, not that he worshipped him.

I believe that there are many examples of a "manlike" individual being worshipped in the Tanakh.

That is because you are deceived by wrong translations.

 

[daqq]

Isaiah 53 speakst about THE SERVANT OF GOD. Please show me in the Tanach where the messiah is referred to as "the servant of God".

Isaiah 53 is only one passage out a set of "suffering servant" passages.
What is the range of those passages in Isaiah according to your understanding?

 

[Elia]

Bs"d

I don't know the range out of the top of my head, but speaking over the other servant songs, here is an excerpt of this page: https://tinyurl.com/53-Isaiah

The strongest proof for the servant being the people of Israel is Isaiah 42. This is also claimed by the NT as a messianic prophecy, see Matthew 12:16-21; "And charged them that they should not make him known: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust."

This is a quote from Isaiah 42, applied by the NT to JC. Now read here the whole chapter of Isaiah 42 and see that it speaks all the time about the servant of God, see who is that servant of God, and see that it does not speak about the messiah:

"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof. Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto the LORD, and declare his praise in the islands. The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies. I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once. I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools. And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them. They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods. Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not. The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore. Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come? Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? for they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law. Therefore he hath poured upon him the fury of his anger, and the strength of battle: and it hath set him on fire round about, yet he knew not; and it burned him, yet he laid it not to heart."

As you see, saying JC was the servant doesn't fit very well: "Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not."

According to the NT Jesus was not blind and deaf. Conclusion: JC is not the servant. Conclusion: The NT is based upon false premises.

It is here literally spelled out who is the servant that Isaiah talks about: "Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not. The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore. Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come? Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers?"

Where it says "But this is a people", (some translations say: But it is a people), there it says in the original Hebrew: we-hu am bazuz. That is literally translated: "And HE is a robbed nation/people." The 'he' refers to the servant in the previous verse. The following verses identify that nation as the people of Israel: "Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers?"

We see here that in Isaiah 41:8-9, that is only twenty verses before the beginning of chapter 42 about which the NT claimes that the servant is the messiah, that there the servant is clearly and undisputed ISRAEL: "But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you: You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off"

We also see that in Isaiah 42:18-25, only fourteen verses after the beginning of chapter 42 about which the NT claimes that the servant is the messiah, that there the servant is clearly and undisputed ISRAEL.

So we see that the Christian claim is based upon nothing, and goes against the context and against the plain text of Isaiah.

(the text looks better on the original page)

 

[daqq]

Originally Posted by Elia
Isaiah 53 speakst about THE SERVANT OF GOD. Please show me in the Tanach where the messiah is referred to as "the servant of God".

Isaiah 53 is only one passage out a set of "suffering servant" passages.
What is the range of those passages in Isaiah according to your understanding?

The strongest proof for the servant being the people of Israel is Isaiah 42.

Okay, so apparently you are willing to agree that at least there is a section of about ten or eleven chapters, from approximately Isaiah 42 up to approximately Isaiah 53, which contain the so-called "suffering servant" passages, correct? And if this be so, who then is the Prophet speaking about in Isa45:1? For that whole passage is just about right smack in the middle of the "suffering servant" passages. Is Cyrus the ultimate and final fulfillment of that passage? or is there another Anointed one or Meshiach of YHWH to come by that name according to your understanding? Please remember that Cyrus was a worshiper of Marduk, (if that is what and who you think the name Koresh intends), and this is a well known fact by way of the discovery of the Cyrus Cylinder:

http://www.livius.org/ct-cz/cyrus_I/cyrus_cylinder2.html
http://www.livius.org/sources/content/cyrus-cylinder/?

So then, unless you are willing to believe that a worshiper of Marduk is Meshiach of YHWH, in Isa45:1, you therefore have your answer to your question right there in Isa45:1, and indeed, the whole passage.

 

[daqq]

Kol Kore bamidbar is also an Anointed one, (Isa40:3, Joh1:23, Mat3:3, Mrk1:1-3), for EliYahu the Spirit of the Prophets was upon him, (Mat11:10, Exo23:20-23, Mal3:1, Mal4:5-6, Luk1:17, Mat11:13-14). Moreover the sons of Kore, of Asaph, have the same name, (Qore, "the Cryer"). See also Joh1:31a(Isa45:4) and Joh1:33a(Isa45:5).

 

[Elia]

Okay, so apparently you are willing to agree that at least there is a section of about ten or eleven chapters, from approximately Isaiah 42 up to approximately Isaiah 53, which contain the so-called "suffering servant" passages, correct? And if this be so, who then is the Prophet speaking about in Isa45:1? For that whole passage is just about right smack in the middle of the "suffering servant" passages. Is Cyrus the ultimate and final fulfillment of that passage?

Bs"d

Cyrus is the fulfilment of that passage.

The anointed one (the messiah) spoken about in Isaiah 45:1 is clearly and undeniably CYRUS.

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

Kol Kore bamidbar is also an Anointed one, (Isa40:3, Joh1:23, Mat3:3, Mrk1:1-3), for EliYahu the Spirit of the Prophets was upon him, (Mat11:10, Exo23:20-23, Mal3:1, Mal4:5-6, Luk1:17, Mat11:13-14). Moreover the sons of Kore, of Asaph, have the same name, (Qore, "the Cryer"). See also Joh1:31a(Isa45:4) and Joh1:33a(Isa45:5).

Bs"d

You don't become an anointed one by having "a spirit upon you".

You become an anointed one by being anointed.

An excerpt from my Daniel 9 page, here to be found: https://tinyurl.com/Daniel-9



Who was the messiah? In order to understand this we first have to understand what is a messiah. Messiah comes from the Hebrew word 'meshiach' which means 'anointed one' It was the custom to anoint kings with oil before they came to power. There were already many anointed kings in Jewish history. Read for instance I Samuel 9:27 to10:1; Here Saul is anointed by Samuel the prophet. And thereby he became a messiah, an anointed one, See Samuel 11:13 up to 12:3: Here in verse 3 king Saul is called G.ds anointed, in the Hebrew 'meshiach'. So also king Saul was a messiah. Look in I Samuel 16:12-13, here the prophet Samuel anoints David, the Hebrew verb for anointing is 'mashach', and he becomes an anointed one, as we can read in II Samuel 23:1; "David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed (in the Hebrew 'meshiach') of the G.d of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said; …"

I Kings 1:39; "And Zadok the priest took an horn of oil out of the tabernacle, and anointed (Hebrew verb 'mashach') Solomon. And they blew the trumpet, and all the people said; G.d save king Solomon." Also Solomon was an anointed one, or messiah: II Chronicles 6:42, here king Solomon prays: "O Lord turn not away the face of thine anointed, …" In the Hebrew: 'meshiach'.

So now we know what is a messiah: An anointed king. And now we can start to figure out who is the messiah from Daniel 9:25

For one thing; we know now who could not have been the messiah from Daniel 9: Jesus. He never was anointed as king by a priest and/or prophet, and he never was a king, in other words: He never was a messiah. Therefore he is disqualified to be the messiah of Daniel 9.

Look in Ezra 1:1, there it says that King Cyrus of Persia gave the order to rebuild the Temple. Now look at Isaiah 45:1; "Thus saith the Lord to His anointed, to Cyrus, ..." We see here that G.d calls the non-Jewish king Cyrus 'His anointed'. This is another cover up of the people who made the King James translation. Both in Isaiah 45:1 and in Daniel 9:25 the Hebrew word 'meshiach' is used, and in Daniel it is translated as 'Messiah', and in Isaiah it is translated as 'the anointed'. The RSV is also here better, it consequentially translates it all with 'anointed one', also in Daniel 9:25.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

 

[daqq]

Bs"d

Cyrus is the fulfilment of that passage.

The anointed one (the messiah) spoken about in Isaiah 45:1 is clearly and undeniably CYRUS.

"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

So then you admit that your Messiah was a worshiper of Marduk.
Get a new Rabbi and some new sages . . .

 

[God's Truth]

You do not even obey what God says in the Old Testament.

You have no blood to offer and no temple.

When was the last prophet the Jews had?

Why doesn't God speak to your kind anymore?

Elia, why not address this post from me? You speak tough words to Christians; is this too tough for you?

Don't you wonder why God does not speak through your people? Why is Jesus the last Prophet?

 

[Wick Stick]

Well, perhaps we should actually read the text?

Ho, every one that thirsteth...

Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God

Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it...

...the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD...

For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths...

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him...

The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith...


Now, is this talking about the Jews who went to Babylon in exile? No, it isn't. I mean, they are in the text, too, but are not the same group. These are the Jews:

All we like sheep have gone astray...

Wounded for our transgressions...

His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.


So, then, who is this other group of people?

 

[Squeaky]

Bs"d

About who does Isaiah 53 speak?

Christians say about the messiah.

Judaism says it speaks about the nation Israel.

Who is right?

I said
I hope you understand there is a milk and a meat understanding of most of the verses. And it could be talking about both. To a Jew it is Israel, and to a Christian it is the coming of Christ.

 

[Elia]

I said
I hope you understand there is a milk and a meat understanding of most of the verses. And it could be talking about both. To a Jew it is Israel, and to a Christian it is the coming of Christ.

Bs"d

There is a lot of proof for the servant being Israel.

There is no proof whatsoever for the servant being the messiah.

 

[God's Truth]

Bs"d

There is a lot of proof for the servant being Israel.

There is no proof whatsoever for the servant being the messiah.

Tell me who is the last prophet of the Jews.

Who is the last man whom God spoke through?