CherubRam
New member
Some other time perhaps. Bye.
About who does Isaiah 53 speak?
- Thread starter Elia
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Some other time perhaps. Bye.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
I didn't know that, and I don't know that.
Somebody can also be "cut off" if he dies a natural death. So no such a thing as "it always means executed".
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
I believe in many more than 2 messiahs. But of course, they were not THE messiah.
That the messiah didn't come yet we know because of the fact that the messianic prophecies are not fulfilled.
In order to get around that some Christians rip 365 texts which have no bearing on the messiah what so ever out of context, and present them as "365 fulfilled messianic prophecies".
But everybody with two working braincells understand that is total nonsense, and lies and deceit.
So why do Christians do that? For the simple reason that there is no proof whatsoever that their messiah was the real messiah. For one thing, he didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies.
And just like there is no proof he was the messiah, even so there is no proof from the Tanach that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah.
And when somebody takes a closer look at Daniel 9, then he sees that it cannot speak about JC.
And that settles the fate of Christianity.
beameup
New member
And what about those thousands of Jews that embraced Yeshua as the Messiah (Meshiach Nagid in Daniel). His appearing coincided perfectly with Daniel's prophecy, and he was "cut-off".
And what of those thousands of Messianic Jews that live in Israel presently? The Messianics have no direct "connection" with what you call "Christianity".
Sorry, but faith in Yeshua of Nazareth started in Israel and continues in Israel to this very day.
But we know that you are a liar because you claim that you only use the Tanakh and ONLY the Tanakh.
We know that your primary source of information is your "Oral Torah", which is the commentary of your esteemed rabbis and sages over the centuries. The Talmud is your "Word of God".
KingdomRose
New member
Did you not notice that the suffering servant takes all of the sins of the people onto himself? He can do that only because he has no violence or deceit attributed to him. Israel itself is rife with violence and deceit, as I showed through Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Hosea.
KingdomRose
New member
That's not "saying" anything. Take my post about Daniel 9 and comment on what I said.
KingdomRose
New member
How can you say that Daniel 9 "cannot speak about JC"? It was fulfilled exactly when JC showed up on the earthly scene.
KingdomRose
New member
It would be greatly appreciated if Elia would comment on these very specific points.
I have to add, too, that probably the only thing that I agree with you on is that God Himself is not the one that would have to die for mankind. You are right---it doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible. (It just has to be someone equal to Adam before Adam sinned.)
Greetings KingdomRose,
Kind regards
Trevor
I disagree. Jesus came in the nature of man after Adam’s fall, to rescue those who were under Adamic condemnation of suffering and death. Jesus was the son of Mary, and there was no immaculate conception.
Kind regards
Trevor
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Yes, I did notice. So "the people" = Israel and "the servant" = Israel, so what we have is that Israel takes upon itself the sins of Israel.
Not only can everybody take his own sin upon him, everybody gets his own sin upon him, whether he likes it or not.
And by defintion, a sinner is not sinless.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
All through history we see that some Jews fell victim to idolatry. Nowadays it is the same with the "messianic Jews".
In stead of worshipping the one and only true God Y-H-W-H they start worshipping a human being as if he is God.
This is of course idolatry.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
When you read this then you see why he does not fit in Daniel 9: https://tinyurl.com/Daniel-9
If there is anything you don't understand on that page, just ask.
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Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Why the servant in Isaiah 53 cannot be the Christian messiah:
“Behold, my servant shall act wisely;” You believe this is JC. You believe JC is god. So God is his own servant?
When God speaks about "His servant", is God then speaking about himself or about somebody else?
Hint: A three year old can come up with the right answer.
“his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind”
When did that happen to JC?
“a man of sorrows, and acquainted with sickness” When exactly was JC sick?
“Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”
Wasn’t JC a very popular preacher who entered Jerusalem amongst a big crowd of followers?
“He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth;”
He didn’t open his mouth? "When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. "Is this the way you answer the high priest?" he demanded. "If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?" John 18:22
When he was hanging at the cross he accused God, that is himself; he cried out: “Why did I forsake myself?”
“At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" Mark 15:34
He didn’t open his mouth?
“for the transgression of my people the plague was upon them”
This is a very clear proof it speaks about the Jewish people being punished for their own sins. “The plague was upon THEM”. Plural. So this is not about a singular person, so this is not about the messiah.
The Hebrew word translated as “upon them” is “lamo” The same word “lamo” is also used in Genesis 9:26-27: “God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be THEIR servant."
Deut 32:32; “and THEIR clusters are bitter.” Literally: “For them are bitter clusters.”
Deut 32: 35 “and their destiny will overtake THEM”
Deut 33:2; “"The LORD came from Sinai and dawned OVER THEM from Seir;”
The word “lamo” which means “for them” or “upon them” is also used in Isaiah 16:4, 26:14+16, 35:8, Psalm 119:165.
Some translations, realizing they cannot get around the plural, translate it as: “for the transgression of my people, TO WHOM the stroke was due?” Like this it is translated by the NASB, AMP, ASV, and in the footnote of the NIV.
But this is a very forced translation. There is nothing “due” in verse 8.
“He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence”
Done no violence? “So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.” John 2:15
A grave with the wicked? "When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathe'a, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. And Joseph took the body, and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn in the rock; and he rolled a great stone to the door of the tomb, and departed " Matt 27:57-60
He was in the tomb of a righteous follower of his, and not in the grave with the wicked.
“And with the rich in his death” The Hebrew word for “death” is written in the plural, again indicating it does not speak about a singular person. Unless of course Christianity wants to say that their god died several times. If you say this talks about a whole people, then there is no problem.
But, if you want to say this speaks about the messiah, then you are in trouble.
And of course, this word is mistranslated in about every Christian translation to be found.
“Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief;” So it was the will of God to crush Himself???
“when he makes his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days” God makes himself an offering for sin? JC sees his offspring? How is he going to do that? He was never married, he never had any offspring.
“He shall prolong his days”
God is going to prolong his days when he makes himself an offering for sin? And if he doesn’t, God is not going to prolong his days?
But didn’t God die when he was 30?
“when he makes his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring”
God needs to make himself an offering in order to be able to forgive his creatures? God first has to be murdered by his creatures, and only then he can forgive them?
“Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong” God is going to give Himself a portion with the strong? When exactly did JC get that?
Why the servant in Isaiah 53 cannot be the Christian messiah:
“Behold, my servant shall act wisely;” You believe this is JC. You believe JC is god. So God is his own servant?
When God speaks about "His servant", is God then speaking about himself or about somebody else?
Hint: A three year old can come up with the right answer.
“his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind”
When did that happen to JC?
“a man of sorrows, and acquainted with sickness” When exactly was JC sick?
“Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”
Wasn’t JC a very popular preacher who entered Jerusalem amongst a big crowd of followers?
“He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth;”
He didn’t open his mouth? "When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. "Is this the way you answer the high priest?" he demanded. "If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?" John 18:22
When he was hanging at the cross he accused God, that is himself; he cried out: “Why did I forsake myself?”
“At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" Mark 15:34
He didn’t open his mouth?
“for the transgression of my people the plague was upon them”
This is a very clear proof it speaks about the Jewish people being punished for their own sins. “The plague was upon THEM”. Plural. So this is not about a singular person, so this is not about the messiah.
The Hebrew word translated as “upon them” is “lamo” The same word “lamo” is also used in Genesis 9:26-27: “God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be THEIR servant."
Deut 32:32; “and THEIR clusters are bitter.” Literally: “For them are bitter clusters.”
Deut 32: 35 “and their destiny will overtake THEM”
Deut 33:2; “"The LORD came from Sinai and dawned OVER THEM from Seir;”
The word “lamo” which means “for them” or “upon them” is also used in Isaiah 16:4, 26:14+16, 35:8, Psalm 119:165.
Some translations, realizing they cannot get around the plural, translate it as: “for the transgression of my people, TO WHOM the stroke was due?” Like this it is translated by the NASB, AMP, ASV, and in the footnote of the NIV.
But this is a very forced translation. There is nothing “due” in verse 8.
“He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence”
Done no violence? “So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.” John 2:15
A grave with the wicked? "When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathe'a, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. And Joseph took the body, and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn in the rock; and he rolled a great stone to the door of the tomb, and departed " Matt 27:57-60
He was in the tomb of a righteous follower of his, and not in the grave with the wicked.
“And with the rich in his death” The Hebrew word for “death” is written in the plural, again indicating it does not speak about a singular person. Unless of course Christianity wants to say that their god died several times. If you say this talks about a whole people, then there is no problem.
But, if you want to say this speaks about the messiah, then you are in trouble.
And of course, this word is mistranslated in about every Christian translation to be found.
“Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief;” So it was the will of God to crush Himself???
“when he makes his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days” God makes himself an offering for sin? JC sees his offspring? How is he going to do that? He was never married, he never had any offspring.
“He shall prolong his days”
God is going to prolong his days when he makes himself an offering for sin? And if he doesn’t, God is not going to prolong his days?
But didn’t God die when he was 30?
“when he makes his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring”
God needs to make himself an offering in order to be able to forgive his creatures? God first has to be murdered by his creatures, and only then he can forgive them?
“Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong” God is going to give Himself a portion with the strong? When exactly did JC get that?
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
What is the problem with the Jews thinking of themselves that they were of no account?
Israel sinned, and found reprieve in the suffering servant, which is Israel.
So what happened is that Israel got punished for the sins of Israel. And through the punishment the sin is erased. That is how they got reprieve.
That doesn't refer to the whole history of the Jews, but only to that point in time, where they did not do violence or deception. That happens sometimes.
"The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth;" Zeph 3:13
No, it doesn't say that, because the servant = Israel, therefore it says that Israel takes on the sins of Israel.
When Israel sins, Israel gets punished, and not somebody else. And through the punishment and the suffering the sin is erased. That is how Israel, be it unwillingly, helps itself.
beameup
New member
You worship the Talmud as if it were "the Word of God".
You falsely claimed that you only use and refer to the Tanakh alone.
Whom is Daniel referring to in the following passage?
“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed."
Daniel 7:13-14 NASB
Does God purposely mislead the readers of his divine word, leading them to falsely worship a "manlike" figure? (re: Joshua worshiped the "Captain of the Lord's Host").
It would be greatly appreciated if Elia would comment on these very specific points.
I have to add, too, that probably the only thing that I agree with you on is that God Himself is not the one that would have to die for mankind. You are right---it doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible. (It just has to be someone equal to Adam before Adam sinned.)
KR, what is the punishment for sin? Death, right? Death is God's just punishment for sin. (Romans 6:23) And since all have sinned, (Romans 3:23) therefore no man can pay for his own sins, let alone the sins of another. And even if a man was perfect, does he have the power to raise himself from the dead? No. If he's dead, he can't even bring himself back to life, let alone every other human.
Tell me KR, who or what has the most value of anything in existence? Is it a man? No, man has fallen short. Is it an angel? No, I'm sure some are more valuable than others, but as far as I'm aware, there isn't an angel in existence that has ever died, so they inherently cannot pay for sin's wages. Oh, I know, how about God Himself? Don't you think that God Himself is the most valuable and precious entity in all of existence? I think so. He's the only one who's value is higher than what is required for the payment necessary for the punishment of sin. He has infinite value. If you think otherwise, please, provide an alternative payment, and then tell God that there was a better way.
Now, since we've established that nothing short of God's death would be enough payment for sin, how then can you say that Jesus, who died for the sins of the world, who literally became sin for us, is not God, if the only thing valuable enough to pay for it is God Himself? If Jesus was not God, then His death could not even save one man from sin, because He does not have infinite value.
Jesus is God the Son. He has to be, otherwise sin would not have been paid for when He died.
Greetings JudgeRightly ,
Kind regards
Trevor
I agree with what you have stated so far. Jesus never sinned, and because of this and because of the loving fellowship between the Father and His Son, God the Father raised Jesus from the dead after three days in the grave. The grave could not hold him Acts 2:24. There was no barrier for the resurrection of Jesus. He did not have to be God the Son to be raised, but a man who had not sinned, and thus he in himself, through God’s care and guidance of him throughout his life, reversed the sentence on man in the garden. He did not see corruption, he did not return to the dust Acts 2:31.
I completely disagree with your logic here. It completely ignores the concept of forgiveness of sins. Prove to me that a payment has to be made, as in the concept of exact payment to balance the sins of mankind. Yes, the figure of the precious blood of Jesus is used, but the whole concept of the reconciliation to God is first based upon what was accomplished in Jesus first, that he reversed the law of sin and death. Then all those who believe in what was accomplished have their sins FORGIVEN, not paid for. God’s righteousness was declared in the death of Jesus because Jesus was obedient to death, and by thus fully bearing all the consequences of Adam’s transgressions and the sins of those who killed him, God was able to reverse the condemnation of Adam’s sin, when God raised him from the dead. We partake in this process when we believe and are baptised into the death and resurrection of Jesus, the Son of God, and become his brethren through this adoptive process.
Kind regards
Trevor
Ok.
Come on Trevor, it's not like it's some obscure verse. I even referenced it above:
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 6:23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans6:23&version=NKJV
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Why would I wanna go from there?
What proof from the Tanach do you have that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?
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