About who does Isaiah 53 speak?
- Thread starter Elia
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Elia
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beameup
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No, post-70 AD Judaism says it speaks about the nation Israel.
Of course, you know NOTHING about pre-70 AD Judaism. I'd get a refund from you "yeshiva" if I were you.
As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: So shall he sprinkle many [Gentile] nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider. - Isaiah 52:14-15
Greetings Elia,
John 12:37-41 (KJV): 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
These words of Isaiah 6:9-10 have been fulfilled, not only with respect to Isaiah’s own preaching, but also with the preaching of Jesus and the Apostles.
Kind regards
Trevor
Yes, it is speaking about Jesus the Son of God. I suggest that the framework of this suffering servant is Hezekiah and his suffering and intercession, resulting in his recovery from sickness, and the deliverance from the Assyrian. It is interesting in the NT application, the Apostle John quotes Isaiah 53:1 together with Isaiah 6:9-10 at the end of Jesus’ public ministry. Despite his many miracles and the uniqueness and power of his teaching, he was rejected by most of his Jewish contemporaries, and yet on this occasion sought out by two Greeks. This was a preliminary indication that the gospel would also go out to the Gentiles, and in actual fact history shows that the Gentiles responded much more than did the Jews, showing that these prophecies are true.
John 12:37-41 (KJV): 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
These words of Isaiah 6:9-10 have been fulfilled, not only with respect to Isaiah’s own preaching, but also with the preaching of Jesus and the Apostles.
Kind regards
Trevor
Elia
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Bs"d
Do you have some support from the text of Isaiah to support your point that Isaiah 53 speaks about the messiah?
Kinds regards,
Eliyahu
Greetings again Elia,
He uses the circumstances of Ahaz to predict in contrast the raising up of a righteous seed to David, and in Isaiah 11 and 12 speaks of a second exodus, when God’s anger is turned away from Israel and the Holy One is in the midst of Zion.
He uses the historical incidents of Hezekiah, and his Godly character as a framework to speak of a unique Servant, “Behold my servant” Isaiah 42:1, 52:13, set in the context of the national servant who would not wholly follow the ways of God. Some of the terms of Isaiah 53 find their partial fulfillment in Hezekiah, but they speak only in full detail of the Messiah. Hezekiah suffered, was healed from near death, his life was prolonged for 15 years, he saw his seed in the birth of Manasseh, but also in the rebirth of faith in many in Israel, and he shared in the spoil from the Assyrian defeat. This is all a pattern of greater things centred in the Messiah, who would be the sin offering, he would suffer death and yet be raised to bring to birth his seed, the faithful who believe in him. He is yet to return to establish the kingdom, and sit as king/priest on the throne of Davis in Jerusalem as depicted in Isaiah 2:1-4 and Isaiah 6:1, and many other prophecies.
Kind regards
Trevor
It is first based upon the whole structure of the book, and then the focus on Isaiah 53. Isaiah prophesied during the reign of the four kings, Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, and he uses the people and the circumstances of the time as a framework to speak of future things. He uses the military predominance and pride of Uzziah to anticipate the position of Israel in the land today, in contrast to the coming kingdom of the Messiah, who will bring peace and the knowledge of God’s way to all the earth when he comes to sit as king/priest upon the throne of David in the Third Temple Isaiah 2 and 6.
He uses the circumstances of Ahaz to predict in contrast the raising up of a righteous seed to David, and in Isaiah 11 and 12 speaks of a second exodus, when God’s anger is turned away from Israel and the Holy One is in the midst of Zion.
He uses the historical incidents of Hezekiah, and his Godly character as a framework to speak of a unique Servant, “Behold my servant” Isaiah 42:1, 52:13, set in the context of the national servant who would not wholly follow the ways of God. Some of the terms of Isaiah 53 find their partial fulfillment in Hezekiah, but they speak only in full detail of the Messiah. Hezekiah suffered, was healed from near death, his life was prolonged for 15 years, he saw his seed in the birth of Manasseh, but also in the rebirth of faith in many in Israel, and he shared in the spoil from the Assyrian defeat. This is all a pattern of greater things centred in the Messiah, who would be the sin offering, he would suffer death and yet be raised to bring to birth his seed, the faithful who believe in him. He is yet to return to establish the kingdom, and sit as king/priest on the throne of Davis in Jerusalem as depicted in Isaiah 2:1-4 and Isaiah 6:1, and many other prophecies.
Kind regards
Trevor
Jesus Christ the Son of God fulfilled over 100 Old Testament prophecies, your beliefs are from the pits of hell.
Elia
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beameup
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How about YOU sharing all those prophecies that YOU claim are about Messiah.
While you're at it, please give us the details about the Daniel prophecy
that states that Messiah the Prince will be EXECUTED. Daniel 9:25-26
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
"And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him." Gen 5:24
Do you think that the above is a messianic prophecy?
Elia
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Bs"d
My pleasure. Look here in chapter 3, there I go into detail about the real messianic prophecies: https://tinyurl.com/Notestament
I gave that before, but I'll give it again: https://tinyurl.com/Daniel-9
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beameup
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You ignorantly assume that everyone nowdays only has the "King James Version" to rely upon for all information. Newsflash: we have very sophisticated software and a plethora of translations to rely upon. I note that you also must outright "dismiss" the Septuagint with phony slander as well as the Hebrew Dead Sea Scrolls, because they reveal your false teachings. Instead, you rely solely on a 1,000 year old, Dark Ages, Hebrew Masoretic Text.
BTW, the TEXT in Daniel 9 says that Messiah the Prince will be EXECUTED. Any 4th grader can easily understand the simple clear message.
Elia
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Bs"d
No, it doesn't say "executed", it says "יכרת", and that does not mean "executed", but "cut off".
beameup
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Yes, you "cut-off" the Messiah just like you "cut-off" the Prophets that came before Him.
karath - to chop off, cut down, ostracize
KingdomRose
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Well, to me it is pretty plain that Isaiah 53 is NOT speaking about the nation of Israel, for these reasons:
1) Isaiah writes about his nation (Israel) holding the suffering servant "as of no account," and "Jehovah himself has caused the error of US ALL to meet up with that one," and "because of the transgression of MY PEOPLE he had the stroke." How could Isaiah be referring to the nation of Israel---his people---when it is they who held the suffering servant as of no account, and it is they who transgressed and therefore had to find a reprieve in the suffering servant?
2) Isaiah writes that this suffering servant "had done no violence, and there was nodeception in his mouth." (verse 9) Such was not the case with the nation of Israel. Sad to say, they had a history of violence and deception. It's not pleasant to relay this information, but it stands as truth, because it is recorded in the very Tanakh of the Hebrew scholars.
"Violence and despoiling are heard in her; sickness and plague are before my face [YHWH's] constantly. Be corrected, O Jerusalem, that my soul may not turn away disgusted from you." (Jeremiah 6:7,8)
"Make the chain; for the land is full of bloody crimes, and the city is full of violence." (Ezekiel 7:23, The Holy Scriptures, Jewish Publication Society)
"As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit." (Jeremiah 5:27)
"Their tongue is a sharpened arrow, it speaketh deceit; One speaketh peaceably to his neighbor with his mouth, but in his heart he layeth wait for him. Shall I not punish them for these things? Saith the LORD; Shall not My soul be avenged on such a nation as this?" (Jeremiah 9:7,8)
"Swearing and lying, and killing, and stealing, and committing adultery! They break all bounds, and blood toucheth blood." (Hosea 4:2)
So, as I see it, the nation itself cannot be the one that Isaiah 53 speaks about. It says that this one that comes to take on himself their errors is someone other than the nation itself. He "will bring a righteous standing to many people," and "he will carry the very sin of many people." (vs.11,12) How could the nation of Israel do that? It itself was in need of help. How could it help Isaiah's people when it WAS Isaiah's people? How could the nation sacrifice itself for itself, when it was steeped in violence and deceit?
KingdomRose
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I guess you haven't read the book of Daniel lately. It's quite clear. "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity to bring in everlasting righteousness..." (Dan.9:24) Hasn't it always been the command from God that the blood of sacrificed (executed) animals must be offered to bring an end to sin, though temporary? Daniel writes of the time when the blood offered will be permanent. For that to happen, the Messiah would have to be executed. It is further emphasized in verse 26:
"Then after the 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing..." To be "cut off" always means executed. But you already knew that, right?
KingdomRose
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Can you please post your own words about all this, and quote specific passages from the Bible that support your thoughts? Thank you.
KingdomRose
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What else could it mean, other than "executed"???
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