Abortion-a crying shame. (HOF thread)

Daniel50

New member
Abortion-a crying shame.

Abortion-a crying shame.

ABORTION
Somehow most “discussions� about abortion tend to quickly degenerate into slogans and/or screaming matches between “pro-life� and “pro-choice.� But the issue is not actually so easily delineated.
Lots of people who personally oppose abortion might also concede that women (and men) should have the right to make their own moral and physical choices. After all, this is America where we take our freedom rather seriously. And indeed, statistics reflect that a majority of people in the United States have “serious reservations� about abortion, yet a majority are also in favor of ensuring it remains a legal right for women.
It would also be a gross overstatement to claim that everyone who favors abortion under certain circumstances should carry the implicated label of “anti-life.� It is not unheard of for those who work with very young girls who are scared and pregnant—perhaps bearing the child of a rapist or family member—to soften a prior intense opposition to abortion. After looking into thousands of these young girls’ faces, it can be difficult to take an absolute stand against abortion, even while clinging to a personal commitment to the sanctity of life. In contrast, it’s rather easy to maintain a hard-line stand if we never take a close look at the harsh realities of the problem.
Several crucial factors come into play whenever the topic of abortion is raised. One is the often-debated issue of exactly when life begins. Many Christians have a firm conviction that life begins at conception. They are fond of quoting biblical passages that reflect God’s future plans for as-yet-unborn people. Here are a few of the passages frequently used:

• “You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother’s womb. . . . You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb� (Psalm 139:13, 15).
• “The Lord gave me a message. He said, ‘I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my spokesman to the world’ � (Jeremiah 1:4-5).
• “In a loud voice [Elizabeth] exclaimed [to Mary]: ‘Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! . . . As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy’ � (Luke 1:42, 44, NIV).

In addition to these passages are a number of prophecies that a woman would conceive a child who would be special. Such assurances were made to Sarah (Genesis 18:9-14), Samson’s mother (Judges 13:3-5), Mary the mother of Jesus (Luke 1:26-3 , and others. Those who believe Scripture often come to the conclusion that each and every child to be born has a God-foreseen future and fits snugly into God’s overall plan for humanity. Abortion, therefore, is not merely the removal of a not-yet-viable embryo, but rather the loss of a very real person as well as all that that unique child of God might have done in his or her lifetime.
Advocates for abortion don’t agree that life begins at conception. It then becomes a matter of determining exactly when the fetus transforms from a growing cluster of cells into a state advanced enough to be considered a person.
The abortion issue was taken to the Supreme Court in the Roe vs. Wade case of 1973. The court ruled that during the first trimester of pregnancy, a state cannot regulate abortions at all as long as a licensed doctor oversees the procedure. During the second trimester, the state was allowed to refuse an abortion if the woman’s health was at risk. And during the third trimester, the state could refuse all abortions except for those needed in order to save the life of the mother. These determinations were made on the basis that the fetus usually becomes “viable� (capable of living outside the uterus) at about 28 weeks, but sometimes as early as 24 weeks.
The Roe vs. Wade decision initiated an increase in abortions, as well as in numerous state attempts to restrict abortions and subsequent hearings in the Supreme Court. Now 30 years later, anti- abortion advocates are still attempting to have the Roe vs. Wade decision overturned. Abortion is widespread, yet only about a third of the population desires stricter abortion laws, with 64 percent satisfied with current laws or willing to have less strict regulations.
And as should be expected, each side challenges the other in regard to its stand on the topic. Some of those who say life begins at conception and are strongly pro-life are willing to undergo in vitro fertilization in order to have children of their own. The process, however, involves fertilizing a number of eggs, some of which are eventually destroyed or used for experimentation. If life indeed begins at the initial fertilization, the disposal of single-celled eggs can be equated (by opponents) with abortion at other early stages before the fetus is fully developed.
Abortion advocates are coming under fire for callous disregard for human life when an abortion attempt results in a live birth. A nurse at a Chicago hospital recently reported how babies who were supposed to be aborted but lived were simply wrapped in a blanket and left to die. Sometimes they live for hours before dying from lack of attention. This accepted method of “treatment� seems barbaric to many who oppose abortion. Even if life doesn’t begin at conception, it certainly should begin when a baby comes out of the womb and starts breathing on its own.
The still-being-debated issue is how to determine the rights of everyone involved. No one wants to deny the rights of a pregnant woman. But abortion opponents want to consider the rights of the unborn as well. Pregnant women can speak for themselves. In addition, they frequently have powerful political lobbies behind them. Pro-life activists want to provide corresponding rights for the unborn.
And to add to the controversy is the recent approval of the “abortion pill,� also known as RU-486 or mifepristone. This pill can be prescribed to terminate “early pregnancy� (up to 49 days after the beginning of the woman’s last menstrual period). It’s too soon to determine what effect this will have on abortion numbers in the United States. Some people expect a massive increase. However, the numbers following European release of the drug, while reflecting a bit of a rise, did not skyrocket as feared.
The emotions involved in both the pro-choice and pro-life camps are so strong that the issue is never likely to be resolved to everyone’s mutual satisfaction. In most cases, Christians will oppose abortion. Yet in the zeal to promote what Christians believe, we need to be aware that the problem of abortion may have hit close to home for many people within earshot. And perhaps we should remind ourselves that we also believe in love, forgiveness, and compassion.
www.illumina.com
 

Crow

New member
Originally posted by aikido7

The photographs are graphic. Some call them disgusting and feel emboldened enough to outlaw all abortions, no matter what.

If it is a war on human life here, the ones who are doing the abortions and consenting to them have good intentions. Just like the bombing of civillians--it is a regrettable consequence of a higher good.



Big red letters and coarse photography. Hmmm....
Those images are offensive, and they are authentic. And the big red letters are because 1Peacemaker saw a photo someone posted in another thread, and I really don't wish to experience another nitwit whining ad nauseum because they are offended. Not that I don't mind offending people for a good cause.



And why not? Unrealistic censorship of true reality masquerading as "protecting children" is not defensible. Our children have to learn the truth, and good parents will have the love, maturity and imagination to teach their children about what really goes on in the world. Only by telling children the truth without the intent to upset and shock will the world be changed and the power of pornographic images--sexual or violent--will vanish and shrink

Some kids aren't ready to see this stuff, and other parents don't wish to them to see it. It's their parents choice, not yours.


Only the self-deluded cannot imagine their country or government is involved in henious and tragic crimes. It is about time we all realized that and used some imagination, morality and honor to come up with alternatives. The authority given to doctors, presidents and governments is giving aid and comfort to psychopaths

This is the abortion discussion.


Let us be truthful. "Lumps of unrecognizable human tissue" ARE being "aborted." When you say that:

I'll bet that most people recognized what they saw.

The thread is not going to show exactly ALL that goes into the trash. If it did, the thread would be not near as sensational. From a rabid critic of abortion, photographs of lumps of tissue are just way too boring.

This is a fetus (below) at 9 weeks gestation. Unless you're Stevie Wonder, you ought to be able to recognize that this is not just a lump of tissue. Unless, of course, you are referring to after it is pulverized.



It would be nice if we could only publish the pictures of terror and death to make the madness stop. It is pretty to think so. Maybe we should be posting pictures from Iraq that our "liberal news media" chooses to hide from us--the kind that Al-Jazeera likes to broadcast.

This is the abortion thread.

It has not worked in war--where cruelty and killing is often the conscious intent AND the result--and it will not work in abortion, as long as women and doctors make decisions out of an awareness of doing good in the world

It has worked on individual people. I'm one of them. cattyfan is another.


Crow, your inflamatory words would lead one to think that these doctors and these women are involved in something patently evil.

They are.

Or that somehow taking one's medical oath seriously and at the same time making a good living from one's calling is impossible.

Plenty of doctors manage to do so without killing babies.

Or feeling backed into a corner and unsupported by culture and society is being ignorant and callous.

Nothing wrong with feeling however one wants too. It's killing that is ignorant and callous.

Calling doctors and women murderers that have no conscience shows an ignorance of the human condition. Blanket condemnation is too simplistic.

Killing unborn babies is wrong. Some things are that simple.

I wish it WAS simplistic--because abortion is a distasteful and difficult matter. And because of that fact, the issue will never be "solved." It will never go away. The profound questions and themes it stirs up in us partly come from what it means to be a human being. Crow, sorry to be so blunt, but abortion has always been as perennial as the grass and is as common as the air that humans breathe.[/i]

Abortion has existed. Murder has existed. Rape has existed. And prior existance is no reason not to deal with preventing any of the three to the best of our ability.
 

aikido7

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Banned
Sure, this is an abortion thread. But seeing the same pattern which informs ALL murder is instructive, provided one does not hobble one's imagination. Those who are opposed to abortion and those who justify abortion will mislead themselves into a circular argument if they wilfully ignore abortion's connections as well as its consequences.

You should not limit my thinking or writing on this topic by invoking unamed rules about HOW the topic should be explored.
That is unfair and insulting. If you use your imagination and broaden your outlook on the topic, I am sure you will see the relevance of comparing the killing of human life to both abortion and war.

Many women abort--with or without medical help. They also miscarry--an act of God or the Devil. And sometimes it is just tissue and blood, but tissue and blood are not very graphic or sensational. It is just as ignorant ("ignore") to say that all aborted fetuses resemble babies.

Yes, plenty of doctors do not do abortions. Most doctors do not. Most doctors do not do appendectomies. Remember, we are talking about "abortion doctors." Right? Abortion is a ghastly medical specialization. And it is very real.

I respect your stance and cattyfan's as well. I have stood up against killing and faced a seven-year prison term with a three-year stint in a military hospital when I was released. But I was also aware that young people were being drafted by the hundreds even though I took my stand.

When the circumstances that cause war and abortion are addressed, then they will become joyless memories. Addressing the causes of both will take more courage than burning a draftboard or lying down in front of a clinic.

Killing is wrong. Simple to say and believe? Sure. Unfortunately, the human condition is not simple. You know that and I know that. Thus, the abortion "problem," "dilemma" or "question."

Abortion has existed. Murder has existed. Rape has existed. And prior existance is no reason not to deal with preventing any of the three to the best of our ability.

No argument. I just wanted to point out that the occurrence and the prevention of tragedy are part of the dynamic of human history.
 
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Art Deco

New member
Note: If you're pregnant you're going to have a baby. Only an abortionist's intervention could stop the inevitable from happening.
 

smothers

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Banned
Originally posted by Crow

As technology has advanced, brain waves are detectable at about 9 weeks now. It is difficult because the mother's body generates a great amount of background current and noise, but it has been done. There is brain activity in the first trimester.

Untrue Christian myth. The "measurements" of brain waves are merely the synapses starting to connect. The brain's cerebral cortext and central nervous system is not mature enough to generate brain waves.

I don't believe that any such qualification is necessary to recognize the right to life of the fetus, but I throw this in as an example of how one's "measurable" biological data is not necessarily absolutely correct as our ability to detect and understand natural phenomena has rendered a lot of "facts" fiction, and does so regularly.

What criteria do you use to qualify the right to life of a two week fetus?

On to the Biblical issue--

While the Bible recognized that some persons were slaves, do you see anywhere that it is OK to murder your slave if you don't want him? I don't.

I brought up slavery because you inferred slavery was wrong. You also have used the Bible as a proof-text to support your position. If the bible promotes something that is wrong, why would you use it to support your abortion position?

The "abortion" you refer to in the Bible is miscarriage as a result of altercation between adults, an accidental death. Accidental death is not treated as murder in the Bible...

My point in this case was the status given to the baby. In the biblical text I quoted, the baby was given the status of "property" rather than individual.

But I digress, regardless of what the Bible says about the subject, I do not use it as a basis for morality. As we both do not view the Bible with the same reverance, we should not use it as a basis for the argument at hand.
 

smothers

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Banned
Originally posted by Art Deco

Why do you find the human baby body parts, the product of abortion, to be disgusting? You can not escape the reality that abortion is murder in a most gruesome manner.

We find the pictures disgusting for different reasons. I would view a picture of a cute kitten run over by a tractor trailer then placed in a meat grinder with equal disgust. It is tactless, crude and unnecessarily vile.

You would rather believe a lie than acknowledge the truth. Anyone who supports and defends abortion is no better than a Nazi SS storm trooper. No honor, no class, no conscience, no humanity...soulless. A good Democrat.

blah. blah. blah. Call me names because you disagree with me. Paint me with a broad brush because we disagree on this one issue. I've been called some pretty nasty names, but the nastiest of all is "DEMOCRAT!"
 

smothers

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Banned
Originally posted by aikido7

The photographs are graphic. Some call them disgusting and feel emboldened enough to outlaw all abortions, no matter what.

If it is a war on human life here, the ones who are doing the abortions and consenting to them have good intentions. Just like the bombing of civillians--it is a regrettable consequence of a higher good.

The ends justifies the means?

The SAME argument is used to murder an abortion doctor or bomb an abortion clinic.
 

On Fire

New member
Originally posted by smothers
As we both do not view the Bible with the same reverance, we should not use it as a basis for the argument at hand.

At what age do you consider killing a fetus wrong?
 

smothers

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Banned
Originally posted by Art Deco

Note: If you're pregnant you're going to have a baby. Only an abortionist's intervention could stop the inevitable from happening.


80% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage.
 

Art Deco

New member
Originally posted by smothers

80% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage.
This is meaningless smoke and mirrors when we are talking about aborting live and some times full term babies. But, what would you expect from a pro-abort. :doh:
 

Art Deco

New member
Originally posted by smothers

We find the pictures disgusting for different reasons. I would view a picture of a cute kitten run over by a tractor trailer then placed in a meat grinder with equal disgust. It is tactless, crude and unnecessarily vile.
It's the essence of abortion. Tactless, crude, unecessarily vile, ...cruel, heartless, and without pity.
 

Husband&Father

New member
The 13 weeks "position"

The 13 weeks "position"

A conversation between a pregnant girl and Smothers:

Girl: "I’m thinking of having an abortion"

Smothers: "How far along are you"

Girl: "Lets see…today is Saturday…Monday will be 13 weeks"

Smothers:
"Well if your going to have an abortion have it today, the clinic is closed Sunday and on Monday your fetus will be a baby"

Girl: "It’s not a baby today?"

Smothers:
"Nope"

Girl: "Monday it will be a baby?"

Smothers:
"Yep"

Girl: "Who says?"

Smothers:
"I say"

Girl: "Two days makes a difference?"

Smothers:
"That’s my position. 13 weeks. Before 13 weeks OK. After thirteen weeks not OK"


Girl: "How did you come up with that position?"

Smothers:
"I thought about it, I looked into it, I prayed about it, I pondered it then I picked 13 weeks."

Girl: "Well I’ve thought about it… I think I will have the abortion but I have a thing on Monday so I’m going to make my position 14 weeks. I’m going to pick 14 weeks that way I can have the abortion and it will still be a fetus not a baby"

Smothers:
"Baby Killer"
 

Husband&Father

New member
The 13 weeks position

The 13 weeks position

Smothers wrote:
[Those who appear to hold a religious bent are in the habit of resorting to personal attacks.]

1. This is a broad generalization. A classic passive aggressive attack of the same nature as the attacks you admonish. First you attempt to marginilize by way of a patronizing put-down ie: "those who hold a religious bent" then you attempt to demonize i.e.: "are in the habit of resorting to personal attacks". Talking about "those who hold…" rather than talking about me is a lame attempt to avoid a "personal" attack while attacking me. You might get away with it while critiquing other posters but I’m going to call it what it is. Namely: smarmy, elitist babble.
2. Honestly, It’s not personal. I truly do not know you or any one else on this board "personally" and as such I lack the ability to make personal attacks. I’m just making spot comments to posts not to people. It’s not personal it’s the Internet.

Smothers wrote:
[My position is: I am for abortion until the beginning of the 13th week.]

This position is arbitrary. It can not be defended with intellectual honesty against a person who would condemn you because they picked 12.5 weeks nor can it be supported with logical consistency to a person you would condemn who picked 13.5 weeks. Your position is just that; YOUR position. You are fallible, you might be wrong. And if your wrong on this question your really wrong because we are talking about life or death here.
 

Daniel50

New member
Is this verse related to Abortion?
Isaiah 66:9
Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

Abortion is Curse.
 

Art Deco

New member
Re: The 13 weeks "position"

Re: The 13 weeks "position"

Originally posted by Husband&Father

A conversation between a pregnant girl and Smothers:

Girl: "I’m thinking of having an abortion"

Smothers: "How far along are you"

Girl: "Lets see…today is Saturday…Monday will be 13 weeks"

Smothers:
"Well if your going to have an abortion have it today, the clinic is closed Sunday and on Monday your fetus will be a baby"

Girl: "It’s not a baby today?"

Smothers:
"Nope"

Girl: "Monday it will be a baby?"

Smothers:
"Yep"

Girl: "Who says?"

Smothers:
"I say"

Girl: "Two days makes a difference?"

Smothers:
"That’s my position. 13 weeks. Before 13 weeks OK. After thirteen weeks not OK"


Girl: "How did you come up with that position?"

Smothers:
"I thought about it, I looked into it, I prayed about it, I pondered it then I picked 13 weeks."

Girl: "Well I’ve thought about it… I think I will have the abortion but I have a thing on Monday so I’m going to make my position 14 weeks. I’m going to pick 14 weeks that way I can have the abortion and it will still be a fetus not a baby"

Smothers:
"Baby Killer"

Excellent post. :first:
 

avatar382

New member
We have arbitrary lines drawn all over society. Why is it that 18 year olds can vote, but someone who is 17 years and a month cannot?

I think the point of smothers arbitrary line is that it is ultra conservative and no sentient being can be killed if the line is drawn at that point. Of course, some fetuses may not develop sentience until after that point, but again, there are 17 year olds that are more "adult-like" than some 21 year olds, but the 21 year old is the "adult".
 

Anne

New member
Nonsense, Smother's arbitrary line is NOT ultra conservative. Sentience is NOT the issue, it is still murder.

Sigh, you pro-aborts just don't get it.:doh: Why do you desperately try rationalize the killing of unborn children.:nono:
 

avatar382

New member
Originally posted by Anne

Nonsense, Smother's arbitrary line is NOT ultra conservative. Sentience is NOT the issue, it is still murder.

Sigh, you pro-aborts just don't get it.:doh: Why do you desperately try rationalize the killing of unborn children.:nono:

Sentinence is the issue, because the whole point is that if the fetus is not capable of sentience, it's not a person and thus killing it is not murder.

I think this is where there is an irreconcilable difference of opinion... you believe being alive and human in origin is sufficent for human rights, I believe sentience is also a requirement. ..

EDIT:
Why do you desperately try rationalize the killing of unborn children.

Honestly I'm not desprate to rationalize anything. I enjoy these discussions as philosophical excercises... What makes people people? Why are we here? What is the meaning of life?very interesting stuff. :think:
 
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