In other words, it's BECAUSE we care about the poor that we don't help them when they are unwilling to do their part.
A question for libs
- Thread starter Jefferson
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In other words, it's BECAUSE we care about the poor that we don't help them when they are unwilling to do their part.
I had to do the same to my younger brother back at the end of May.
He was living with me in the house I was renting from my parents, and had been for nearly 10 months. Not once did he ever seek a job or try to find somewhere else to live, yet he was constantly complaining about not having gas in the car my parents were letting him use, but of which he did not have any ownership.
At the beginning of May, I bought the house from my parents, and gave him an ultimatum, that within 4 weeks, if he did not find a job so that he could start paying me rent and utilities and internet (which I had been paying for for the past several months), or find another place to live and move out, that I would kick him out.
Within two weeks, he found a job. But then, the first night he went to work, he quit the same day, and then gave up on trying to find another job. I kicked him out only two weeks in to my ultimatum, because I was sick of his attitude and of having him in my house, and because he was unwilling to work.
Oh, but you might ask, did he have any medical conditions.
According to him? He had pain in his groin from a past surgery and the mesh that was used was coming undone or something along those lines.
According to medical professionals? There's nothing wrong with him.
So no, no medical conditions preventing him from working, yet somehow he's still getting disability payments.
His attitude is why I kicked him out.
And guess what?
He now has a stable job and is paying rent to my uncle who now lives in my town.
All because I kicked him to the curb. And yes, he was sleeping in the car my parents were letting him use for a few nights.
He was living with me in the house I was renting from my parents, and had been for nearly 10 months. Not once did he ever seek a job or try to find somewhere else to live, yet he was constantly complaining about not having gas in the car my parents were letting him use, but of which he did not have any ownership.
At the beginning of May, I bought the house from my parents, and gave him an ultimatum, that within 4 weeks, if he did not find a job so that he could start paying me rent and utilities and internet (which I had been paying for for the past several months), or find another place to live and move out, that I would kick him out.
Within two weeks, he found a job. But then, the first night he went to work, he quit the same day, and then gave up on trying to find another job. I kicked him out only two weeks in to my ultimatum, because I was sick of his attitude and of having him in my house, and because he was unwilling to work.
Oh, but you might ask, did he have any medical conditions.
According to him? He had pain in his groin from a past surgery and the mesh that was used was coming undone or something along those lines.
According to medical professionals? There's nothing wrong with him.
So no, no medical conditions preventing him from working, yet somehow he's still getting disability payments.
His attitude is why I kicked him out.
And guess what?
He now has a stable job and is paying rent to my uncle who now lives in my town.
All because I kicked him to the curb. And yes, he was sleeping in the car my parents were letting him use for a few nights.
Then I'll repeat what I told Jefferson:
The passage you've noted illustrates your freewill regarding the destitute and bespeaks of your character.
What does your miserly interpretation of it demonstrate?
I care less for what Paul says than what a thinking- for- himself -JR says.
lain:
Repeating your argument doesn't make you correct.
As opposed to your desire to see my free will suppressed in favor of the government taking my money by force and giving it to the poor?
What happened to "from my hand to yours" giving?
Ad hominem is a fallacy.
What does the Bible say?
Oh, wait, you don't care what it says, do you.
Let me ask you this, Quip:
You see a man out on the street, begging for money, next to a sign that was posted by a restaurant or business down the street that says "now hiring!" in big bold letters.
Do you give him money? Or do you wonder why he hasn't gone down the street and applied for a job?
Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
That, by the way, is my default response to a loaded question.
You don't care at all what Paul says, so stop lying about that.
I'm quoting Paul and Jesus.
Quip is quoting... well, Quip.
In the above situation I described, if it were me, I'd come back later with a sign that says "NOT WILLING TO WORK" with an arrow underneath and stand next to him with the arrow pointing at him.
If he complains, I'd point to the sign and ask him why he's not applying for a job at the place that is actively hiring people.
Homeless? Why hasn't he asked his friends, family, ex-coworkers, or ex-neighbors to help him.
Burned the bridges? Be honest, was it through his own actions or theirs? If theirs... Willing to work for me if I gave him a place to stay and food to eat, regardless of the task?
But if his... he needs to humble himself and apologise to those he hurt, and start rebuilding the bridges, reconcile himself with them.
If he's not willing to do that, then I'd continue to stand there with the sign until he leaves.
If he IS willing to do that, then I'd consider buying him some food and water and maybe giving him a ride to one of the above persons.
Just an example...
".....What does your miserly interpretation of it demonstrate?"
Nuff said....I appreciate the demonstration. :e4e:
A question remains: How does God view legislating the giving of money or grain to the poor? The Old Testament Law, even if meany only for Israelites, indicates that God approves of such legislation.
He doesn't legislate it (anymore). Period.
He says:
[JESUS]For you have the poor with you always, and whenever you wish you may do them good; but Me you do not have always.[/JESUS] - Mark 14:7 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...7&version=NKJV
So?
Just because God legislated giving to the poor in the past for a single nation (in a covenant that is no longer in effect, by the way) doesn't require that it be legislated at all times for every nation and person.
And before you go there, no, just because such a law applied to the foreigner in the land of Israel doesn't override the laws of other nations, which may or may not have such laws.
That's not what I asked. The question is- does God approve of such legislation, irrespective if He Himself is the one who legislated it?
Depends on the circumstances.
Clearly, He approved of legislating it for Israel for His covenant relationship with them, or He wouldn't have done so.
As for today? Mark 14:7, 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12, is sufficient.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
What response from JR would have caused you to apologize for your insult?
What is YOUR (presumably not miserly) approach to gifting to the poor and needy? Do you open YOUR coffers and say "take all you need"?
We were discussing legislated aid to the poor. The above is irrelevant.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Foreign aid is legislated aid, by definition
And who do you think receives our foreign aid if not the poor and needy?
Is Matthew 25:42-46 also sufficient?
Do you assert that such is mutually exclusive to what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12?
If so, why?
Do you assert that 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12 is mutually exclusive to James 2:14-16?
All of them are in line with each other. So what's your point? Do you think that there's something hidden between the lines that says "if you see a poor person, you must absolutely without fail give them aid or assistance"?
Because there isn't.
If a man will not work, he shall not eat.
If he will work, he shall eat. And that even includes Matthew 25:42-46, Mark 14:7, James 2:14-16, and any other passage that deals with the poor.
So let me rephrase my question, User Name , chair , quip .
Do you think that what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12 should be ignored when considering the rest of what the Bible says?
Do you think we should just rip out those verses from the Bible, simply because it tells us that giving help to the poor doesn't always help them?
Or did you not even consider the possibility that sometimes giving people money, food, a place to stay, does more harm than good?
Did you not consider the possibility that Paul, who was much smarter than everyone in this thread, inspired by the one God who made us and whose wisdom makes fools out of men, took into consideration the consequences of helping someone when they are unwilling to do their part, and wrote, in love, that anyone "who will not work shall not eat", in line with what God said:
Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: “Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field.In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.” - Genesis 3:17-19 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...9&version=NKJV
When I can.
I also give my time at a local crisis center.