A portrait of Jesus in a school? Seriously?

Angel4Truth

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Yeah, how about one where they actually ruled on the issue we're debating?

He did, He ruled it could stay and that your atheist group wanting it removed, didnt have standing to ask for it to be removed, same as in the op, but they caved anyway.

Again, loads of people cave when 9 times out of 10 - they would never be sued, Seen many where they seem to vanish into thin air, when a person says ok then, sue us.
 

Jose Fly

New member

Sheesh....try and keep up, will you? From the article the site you linked to cited (pay particular attention to the bolded text)...

"A federal judge on Monday dismissed a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the Ten Commandments monument in front of Valley Junior-Senior High School in New Kensington.

The ruling could bring an end to a three-year legal battle.

However, it does not address the underlying question of whether the monument is a prohibited government endorsement of religion or a permissible historical landmark."

He ruled it could stay and that your atheist group wanting it removed, didnt have standing to ask for it to be removed

Do you not understand the difference between winning a suit, and having one dismissed for lack of standing?
 

fool

Well-known member
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He did, He ruled it could stay and that your atheist group wanting it removed, didnt have standing to ask for it to be removed, same as in the op, but they caved anyway.

He Did Not Rule On The Case.
He dismissed it.
Big difference.
Somebody else with better standing could bring the case and THEN we might get a ruling.
OR
They can appeal his dismissal of their standing and if they win that then they'll be back at the beginning again and THEN we might get a ruling.
 

Jose Fly

New member
yep and fact, your complainant in the op, also lacked standing, too bad the school caved.

Now you're just desperately going in circles. As I said just a few posts ago, the judge in the other case noted that the student could only cite a couple of instances where she even saw the monument. With the OP, the Jesus painting is prominently displayed where everyone will see it, every day.
 

Angel4Truth

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He Did Not Rule On The Case.
He dismissed it.
Big difference.
Somebody else with better standing could bring the case and THEN we might get a ruling.
OR
They can appeal his dismissal of their standing and if they win that then they'll be back at the beginning again and THEN we might get a ruling.

Again, the same thing would happened with the op, the complainant has no standing.

yes, maybe someone else might sue, so?

Fact, the school caved, but they would have won this one.

shows what their idiot lawyer knows.
 

fool

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yep and fact, your complainant in the op, also lacked standing, too bad the school caved.

What OP did you read?
The article in the OP for this thread is about a demand to take it down.
There has been no filing.
Nobody has caved yet.
 

fool

Well-known member
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Again, the same thing would happened with the op, the complainant has no standing.
What complainant?
There is no complainant cause there's no case filed.
yes, maybe someone else might sue, so?
That would be the next step.

Fact, the school caved, but they would have won this one.
They will lose.
A federal court has also held that the same portrait could not be displayed in a public school.
Pretty much sums it up.

shows what their idiot lawyer knows.
Maybe he knows the case law and that they're gonna lose.
 

Angel4Truth

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What OP did you read?
The article in the OP for this thread is about a demand to take it down.
There has been no filing.
Nobody has caved yet.

The school took it down, they caved, before there was a filing, they would have won, this one if sued, thats my entire point, their lawyer said they would lose, so they caved.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Now, let's see what has happened when the courts have actually ruled on the issue of schools putting up religious displays.

Stone v. Graham

In Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39 (1980), the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that a Kentucky statute was unconstitutional and in violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, because it lacked a nonreligious, legislative purpose. The statute required the posting of a copy of the Ten Commandments on the wall of each public classroom in the state. While the copies of the Ten Commandments were purchased with private funding, the Court ruled that because they were being placed in public classrooms they were in violation of the First Amendment.

And in Joki v. Board of Education Schuylerville School District, we had almost the exact same issue as the OP. In Joki, the issue was over a painting of Jesus on the cross. The school had allowed a senior to paint the image in 1965. From the ruling (which is a good read and covers much of the relevant case law on this issue)...

Taking into account the significant message behind the Crucifixion and the skeptical way in which the Court views sectarian messages in public schools, this court concludes as a matter of law that the painting has the primary effect of endorsing Christianity. First, the school displays the painting permanently and not part of any holiday setting. Further, the school's display contains no placards to explain the paintings meaning or reason for being there. Cf. Allegheny, 109 S.Ct. at 3123 (O'Connor, J., concurring in part and concurring in the judgment) (presence of sign saluting liberty in Christmas display sends message of freedom rather than endorsement of religion); id. at 3114-3115 (opinion of Blackmun, J.). Moreover, this is not a case where the school displays the painting as part of a student art exhibit.

The judge awarded a summary judgement to the plaintiffs (which basically means this was a slam dunk case).

See A4T? That's how you cite case law to support your side in a debate.
 

Angel4Truth

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Now, let's see what has happened when the courts have actually ruled on the issue of schools putting up religious displays.

Irrelevant and we can both toss cases back and forth all day.

My side is that no one knows what would have happened in this case if it went to court. Youre an idiot.

Lots of these cases mysteriously go away when the person being threatened says go ahead and sue.

You got my point yet?
 

fool

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Irrelevant and we can both toss cases back and forth all day.

My side is that no one knows what would have happened in this case if it went to court. Youre an idiot.

Lots of these cases mysteriously go away when the person being threatened says go ahead and sue.

You got my point yet?

You do understand that the school is not a person right?
 

Angel4Truth

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They would have lost.

Eventually no one knows, in this case, i doubt it, they most likely would have won for the same reason the 10 commandment at school case won.

But since it didnt get to court, we cant know either way.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Irrelevant

Oh my goodness, you really can't stand to lose even a single point, can you? Here I cite case law where the courts have ruled specifically on the issue of schools putting up religious displays, in a thread where we're debating the issue of schools putting up religious displays, and you can only respond with "irrelevant"?

And not only that, you posted so fast as to clearly show that you didn't even bother reading either case before declaring them "irrelevant"! Oops.

That is sooooooooo hilarious. :rotfl:


and we can both toss cases back and forth all day.

You have yet to present a single case that supports your side. You've posted two examples. The first was over a different legal issue (student-initiated speech) and the second didn't even address the very issue we're debating.

So before there can be a "back and forth", you should probably present at least one case that supports your argument.

My side is that no one knows what would have happened in this case if it went to court. Youre an idiot.

And you can't write.

You got my point yet?

Oh, I get your point. You're wrong, but are either too stupid or stubborn to ever recognize it.
 

Angel4Truth

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Van Orden v. Perry, 545 U.S. 677 (2005), was a United States Supreme Court case involving whether a display of the Ten Commandments on a monument given to the government at the Texas State Capitol in Austin violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

In a suit brought by Thomas Van Orden of Austin, the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit ruled in November 2003 that the displays were constitutional, on the grounds that the monument conveyed both a religious and secular message.

Van Orden appealed, and in October 2004 the high court agreed to hear the case at the same time as it heard McCreary County v. ACLU of Kentucky, a similar case challenging a display of the Ten Commandments at two county courthouses in Kentucky.

The appeal of the 5th Circuit's decision was argued by Erwin Chemerinsky, a constitutional law scholar and the Alston & Bird Professor of Law at Duke University School of Law, who represented Van Orden on a pro bono basis. Texas' case was argued by Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott. An amicus curiae was presented on behalf of the respondents (the state of Texas) by then-Solicitor General Paul Clement.

The Supreme Court ruled on June 27, 2005, by a vote of 5 to 4, that the display was constitutional.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Orden_v._Perry
 

Jose Fly

New member
Interestingly, the Van Orden v. Perry decision is why state and local governments are having to allow non-Christian displays (e.g., the Satanic statue of Baphomet, the Festivus Pole, atheist displays) when they put up a Christian display.

So in order to be in line with the Van Orden ruling, the school in the OP would have to allow the space to be a sort of open display.
 
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