Originally posted by godrulz
There is truth to what you say, but it is simplistic. The Greeks wrongly assumed the body was evil. Paul taught that it was the temple of the Holy Spirit for believers. Our hands can help or kill. This is volitional. Our eyes can look lustfully or compassionately in purity. We have some control of where we look. Arguing for the reality of will (which is inherent to being human and in the image of God) does not mean it is trying to be holy in the flesh. Romans 6, etc. talk about obedience, yielding, resisting, etc. There is an interplay between our spirit/body and the Spirit. It is not unilateral on God's part and passive on our part. Love is volitional. Sin is volitional. What we actively feed our mind can affect our choices, habit, and character. An artificial divorce between spirit and flesh is more Greekish than biblical. We are to yield our neutral members for the glory of God, rather than sin and selfishness. We have responsibility and that is why we are accountable. This is practical Christian living, not works or self-righteous justification/sanctification.
The point you're missing is that we need to not feed our minds, but let Christ feed us...feed our spirits.
We are not slaves to sin and condemned by sin like when we were outside of Christ. This does not mean that we cannot sin because we are in Christ. You try to dodge the obvious. You agree that Christians commit adultery, yet you are reticent to say they are sinning or responsible.
Quit spewing your vile putridness, just because you disagree with me. Stop accusing me of saying things I've never said. I don't call it sin because the Bible says it's not sin, for we are not transgressing the law. And I have never, not once, said that we are not responsible when we do something wrong.
This is not defensible. You seem to confuse a general truth about those who are living in victory with the specific case of a believer who does not live up to the truth. Your life and mine are examples that can be multiplied by the thousands.
Yeah. And the problem is because people preach what you preach.
We cannot be in the light and in darkness at the same time. We cannot have mixed thoughts, motives, acts, words. Any given choice is praiseworthy or blameworthy. If we yield to Christ and His truth we will be free and live a life pleasing to Him. If we deviate (no excuses), we are in a different mode on that one area/choice. If I live self-controlled by the Spirit (Paul exhorted us to live lives of self-control, submitted to the Spirit...e.g. steal, lust, etc. no more, implying some Christians still were doing these things), then I will not sin.
Paul was exhorting us to submit, yes. But you don't do that. You exhort people to work to be good enough.
Flesh is a metaphor for sin. It is not a metaphysical, mystical thing in our genes. We either yield our body for the glory of God and good of man, or we yield our members wrongly. The Spirit is involved profoundly, but our spirit/soul (will, intellect, emotions) are also a factor. If they were not, we would not be accountable/responsible, nor would we be human, created in the image of God (vs robots).
:duh:
Yet, the "flesh" is human nature, truthfully.
Paul exhorted believers to chose right over wrong. You would have to excise considerable passages to favor isolated proof texts that say we have not responsibility. You admitted as a believer that you desired wrong over right and yielded to the flesh. My whole point is that it is possible to do so.
I never said we don't have responsibility! I said, that when one knows the truth, then one's desires change. And one no longer desires the desires of the flesh, because one is submitted to the Spirit. Yes, there are still times when one submits to the flesh, and we are responsible for those times. But we are not condemned, and if we realize this, then we will not "wallow in the mud." We will get up, and walk away from the submission to the flesh.
Your life demonstrated this possibility, yet your theory seems to preclude or contradict this possibility.
My belief does not contradict this possibility. My belief says that this scenario does not have to be.
You have discovered the key to victorious Christian living ( do not assume I do not understand this because I am arguing on an academic basis about the possibility of struggling).
The problem is that you don't preach that victory is how a Christian should live, and can live. My belief does not say that struggling is impossible. it says that struggling does not need to happen, and that all can live in victory and freedom.
Christ in us, the hope of glory. The Spirit works mightily in us, but it is not apart from our responses and choices. The Spirit can convict, warn, empower, draw, persuade, influence, but the reality is He does not hit the pastor with lightning who has an affair. Your theology must have a cogent explanation for this exception (the NT does).
The pastor who has an affair is not walking according to the truth. And, if He is casually having an affair, and not caring, then he is not in Christ. And if he is not in Christ, then he never was. And I never said anything about being hit with a lightning bolt.
"We won't even desire that which is wrong". This should be normative and possible, but it is not an absolute fact.
You're right, it should be normative. But it's possibiloity is not a should, it is an is. It
is possible.
You once lusted and desired what is wrong. All I am trying to say is self-evident that believer's are not immune to temptation and can even yield to it.
They are not immune, if they don't believe they are. That's my point. If they know the truth, they will be. Not completely immune, but they will know victory, and they will grow in it, instead of being stagnant in the desires of the flesh, as I once was.
I John pride of life, lust of flesh, etc. (world, sin, Satan) are warnings for believers. We are expected to submit to God, resist the devil, and He will flee (James).
How do we resist the Devil? By our own willpower? No! We resist him in the name, and by the blood, of Christ!
We are to put on the whole armor of God (Ephesians).
And that armor is what? Salvation, faith, Word/Spirit, Peace, Righteousness, and Truth. All those things are gifts of God, and none of them are from us. We don't simply put them on, we allow God to outfit us.
The Christian life is more than mental assent to proof texts. It is an active, dynamic relationship with God where He enables and empowers us to live a life pleasing to Him. He gets the glory. He makes it possible. IT is not self-righteous works apart from God. Most believers and scholars would recognize the active words in Scripture to yield, resist, obey, love, do not (Eph. many times), do (Eph.). This does not contradict the other truths about Christ in us, the saving and sanctifying work of the Spirit, etc. It is not either/or, but both/and.
It is mental assent to the truth, for by knowing the truth are we made free...and how is it that we do what we should, and do not do what we should not? It is by Christ!
