A Messianic Jewish Perspective

[steko]

That's a lot of thrones to occupy all at once. Do you think it's literal?

I believe it's just like it says.


Isa 1:26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
Isa 32:1 Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment.
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

 

[TweetyBird]

I believe it's just like it says.


Isa 1:26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
Isa 32:1 Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment.
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

So Jesus is going to sit on 13 thrones all at once?

 

[steko]

So Jesus is going to sit on 13 thrones all at once?

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The throne is not just a physical seat but an office and a position of power and authority.
It's obvious to me that when the Lord Jesus takes the throne of His glory(David's) at His second coming, Mat 25:31 that He will delegate authority to the twelve Apostles as judges over the many times prophecied restored twelve tribes in the land.

 

[Ben Masada]

There is no Israel these days... and never can be. The genealogy of the tribes that legitimately lived in Old Testament Israel was destroyed.

Basically, every 'Jew' that is living in what they have chosen to call Israel are squatters in God's eyes and not children of the promise... they are cursed according to the Old Testament.

The truth hurts doesn't it?

Wake up and smell the coffee! The third Jewish Commonwealth was proclaimed in 1948. In less than 70 years Israel has become one among the great nations in the world. You are on denial, probably because you envy us. By the way, I think I promised you the Essay of Mark Twain about the Jews.Here it is for your eyes only:

The Essay of Mark Twain about the Jews

"If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way.

Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk.

His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also way out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers.

He has made a marvellous fight in the world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it.

The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed suit, and made a vast noise, and they are gone. Other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it has burned out, and they sit either in twilight now, or have vanished.

The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?

Mark Twain

 

[TweetyBird]

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The throne is not just a physical seat but an office and a position of power and authority.
It's obvious to me that when the Lord Jesus takes the throne of His glory(David's) at His second coming, Mat 25:31 that He will delegate authority to the twelve Apostles as judges over the many times prophecied restored twelve tribes in the land.

Jesus is already on His Throne, the Throne of David.

I see no prophecy that states the apostles are judges over any restored land to the 12 tribes.

 

[steko]

Jesus is already on His Throne, the Throne of David.

I see no prophecy that states the apostles are judges over any restored land to the 12 tribes.

The Lord Jesus is presently sitting at the right hand of the Father in the Father's throne.

You'll have to show me where the Scriptures say that David's throne is in heaven.
Nowhere do they say that. It's not there!

In the regeneration(palingenesia) the twelve will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. That's what He said. Argue with Him.

If you can't see the prophecies concerning the restoration of the twelve tribes in the land under Messiah, then you aren't looking very hard.

 

[TweetyBird]

The Lord Jesus is presently sitting at the right hand of the Father in the Father's throne.

You'll have to show me where the Scriptures say that David's throne is in heaven.
Nowhere do they say that. It's not there!

In the regeneration(palingenesia) the twelve will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. That's what He said. Argue with Him.

If you can't see the prophecies concerning the restoration of the twelve tribes in the land under Messiah, then you aren't looking very hard.

I do not see any NT verse that states the restoration of the 12 tribes in the land under Messiah.

Jesus is King NOW and Rules over all the earth. All things are subject to Him, but for death. Heaven comes down to earth - that does not change the fact that Jesus is King now.

Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 6:15
which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Revelation 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Revelation 19:16
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Colossians 1:13
who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

 

[HisServant]

Wake up and smell the coffee! The third Jewish Commonwealth was proclaimed in 1948. In less than 70 years Israel has become one among the great nations in the world. You are on denial, probably because you envy us. By the way, I think I promised you the Essay of Mark Twain about the Jews.Here it is for your eyes only:

The Essay of Mark Twain about the Jews

"If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way.

Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk.

His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also way out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers.

He has made a marvellous fight in the world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it.

The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed suit, and made a vast noise, and they are gone. Other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it has burned out, and they sit either in twilight now, or have vanished.

The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?

Mark Twain

And of course, this is irrelevant in the face of scripture. Last I remember, Samuel Clements was not one of God's prophets.

 

[Ben Masada]

And of course, this is irrelevant in the face of scripture. Last I remember, Samuel Clements was not one of God's prophets.

I think you have missed the point. First of all because the prophetic system in Israel was cancelled and ceased to exist when the New Covenant was established with the return of the Jews from exile in Babylon. (Jeremiah 31:31) and second, Mark Twain was not at all prophesying but reminding us of what the Jews are able to and have achieved just for being themselves the Son of God. Read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My son..." said the Almighty; "let My son go that he may serve Me." That's why we have achieved what we have done just for being who we are, Baruch HaShem!

 

[intojoy]

Ben, if I agreed with you then we'd both be wrong.

 

[beameup]

This is the earthly temple, on Zion, in Jerusalem, where Yeshua Messiah will reign over the earth from Israel.

Not found in the NT. Do you ever wonder why not?

I thought Jesus is the Temple now ... and is reigning now over all the earth. That is what the NT states!

You show contempt for the Word of God. The Word of God is 66 books written by about 40 authors over a period of about 2,000 years. As well, the Word of God is inspired by God the Holy Spirit (ruach 'elohim).

 

[steko]

I do not see any NT verse that states the restoration of the 12 tribes in the land under Messiah.

There is no need for the NT writings to repeat all that is stated in the OT by the prophets concerning the restoration of Israel. That would be exceedingly redundant. All the NT writings need to do is reference the abundant verses by the prophets concerning the restoration.
Here is one of the references by Peter and is self-explanatory:

Act 3:12..... Ye men of Israel....
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore...
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Jesus is King NOW and Rules over all the earth. All things are subject to Him, but for death. Heaven comes down to earth - that does not change the fact that Jesus is King now.

The Lord Jesus is indeed King but He is not presently ruling directly on planet earth from David's throne.
You still haven't shown where the Scriptures declare that David's throne is in heaven. The Lord Jesus declares in Scripture that He will sit on His glorious throne at His second coming to earth.

Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

That describes a vision given to John of events in heaven.
That is not David's throne but in Rev 3:21 is described as the Father's throne.

Revelation 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

That is a vision of the far distant future in the new heaven and new earth.
There's a lot to happen before then.

1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Amen to that, but it has nothing to do with the argument concerning the throne of David.

1 Timothy 6:15
which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Yes, in His 'times/kainos'.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times[kainos] or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Revelation 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Who do you say 'they' is in that verse.
What is 'the song of Moses'?
Do you sing 'the song of Moses'?
Why would you be singing 'the song of Moses'?
In the whole context of the Bible, who would be singing 'the song of Moses'?

Revelation 19:16
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Indeed, and describes His second coming to this earth.

Colossians 1:13
who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

This describes the present position of the true believer as 'sitting in heavenly places in Christ Jesus'.
It does not describe the throne of David.

Where do the Scriptures state that the throne of David was?
And over what was the rule of the throne of David.

What does the angel Gabriel mean by this declaration?

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

 

[TweetyBird]

In Acts 1 the resurrected Lord taught the eleven for forty days things concerning the Kingdom of heaven.
When asked by them, "Are you going to restore the Kingdom to Israel at this time?"
He replied that it was not for them to know the timing of it.

Taken out of context once again. Jesus never said that the kingdom would be restored to Israel. His kingdom is not of this world. In fact, when Peter refers to the end of days, he makes zero mention of Israel being restored and neither does any other writer of the NT letters.

Acts 1
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Peter offered the Kingdom to Israel on the requirement of their repentance in Acts 3. Though many individual Jews received Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah, the nation didn't. Peter told them that if they would repent, then GOD would send Jesus back to complete all things that were spoken by the prophets since the world began.

You must be reading a different Bible than me. What version are you reading?

The ascended Christ raised up Paul for a new program. The new program to the nations is a mystery not previously known and is not according to prophecy for national Israel. There is no reason for mention of the prophetic plans for the twelve tribes during this new program. It's not about them. But there is more than enough information about it in the prophets of Israel. Why ignore it or discount it?

Because Jesus clearly stated that all prophecy concerning Himself was fulfilled. Anything that remained for the future was clearly laid out in the NT. Jesus speaks in detail of the end times and He says about restoring Israel. Neither does Paul, Peter, John, James or Jude. There is not even a hint of it in Revelation. You are making a case built upon sand.

The LORD said that He would not lie to David nor alter what He said regarding David's throne. David's throne is Jerusalem and ruling over the twelve tribes reunited in the land promised. To believe otherwise is to believe that GOD lied to David and altered what He said about David's throne.

What does this mean if it doesn't mean what it says? :

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

All fulfilled. Jesus is King now, the root and offspring of David. Even the Jews of Jesus Time knew He was the King of David's Throne during His ministry. Or maybe you forgot about "Palm Sunday" and the other many times He was called the Son of David???

Matthew 12:23
And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

Matthew 15:22
And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

Matthew 20:30
And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou Son of David. 31 And the multitude rebuked them, because they should hold their peace: but they cried the more, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou Son of David.

Matthew 21:9
And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest. 15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,

Matthew 22
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Mark 12:35
And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?

Luke 1
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel;
for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69
and hath raised up an horn of salvation for us
in the house of his servant David;
70
as he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets,
which have been since the world began:
71
that we should be saved from our enemies,
and from the hand of all that hate us;
72
to perform the mercy promised to our fathers,
and to remember his holy covenant;
73
the oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74
that he would grant unto us,
that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies
might serve him without fear,
75
in holiness and righteousness before him,
all the days of our life.

John 7:42
Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

Acts 13:34
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

Acts 15
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. ----- what is that tabernacle? Eph 2 - Jew and Gentile, one new man, being built into a spiritual habitation - we are the temples of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 1:3
concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

2 Timothy 2:8
Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:


Revelation 3:7
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Revelation 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben, if I agreed with you then we'd both be wrong.

Please, state the reason why we would be at fault. First, though, check the Biblical references I have posted to substantiate what I have said. Thank you.

 

[steko]

Taken out of context once again.

Nope, it's in context.

Jesus never said that the kingdom would be restored to Israel.

Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

GOD promised that the kingdom would be restored to Israel in the land, and the Lord Jesus confirmed that it all would be done by His demonstration that He was Israel's promised Messiah through fulfilling much of what the prophets said that Messiah would do.

His kingdom is not of this world.

No, not of this world. It's of heaven and He instructed Israel to pray that the Kingdom would come and GOD's will be done on this earth as it is in heaven.

In fact, when Peter refers to the end of days, he makes zero mention of Israel being restored and neither does any other writer of the NT letters.

When Peter mentions 'the Day of the LORD', one must go to OT prophecy to understand what all that it entails.

And, Peter already explained to the leadership of Israel in Acts 3 that if Israel would repent then GOD would send Jesus to complete the rest of prophecy for Israel.

Acts 1
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

After 40 days of Christ teaching His disciples about the Kingdom, are you so naïve to think that they misunderstood the nature of the Kingdom?
If GOD had not planned to restore the Kingdom to Israel and the disciples misunderstood, then the Lord Jesus missed the opportunity to correct them about their misunderstanding. If He spent 40 days teaching them about the Kingdom why would He just let it go and leave them in ignorance. That makes no sense.
His reply reveals that they weren't wrong about the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel, but only that they could not know when it would take place. It's obvious!

You must be reading a different Bible than me. What version are you reading?

KJV is my main study Bible and I usually quote from it, but I compare often with as much as around 15 versions, including Greek and Hebrew texts and the LXX Greek.

Because Jesus clearly stated that all prophecy concerning Himself was fulfilled.

No, He didn't!!!!


I see so many people saying that but nowhere does He say it.

Show me where!!!!

Anything that remained for the future was clearly laid out in the NT.

No, some of it is, and...what is said is all in harmony with the OT prophets concerning GOD's plans for Israel. One simply has to read the short references in the NT and then cross-reference to the specific OT prophecies to find the whole picture.

Jesus speaks in detail of the end times and He says about restoring Israel.

What the Lord says is always in harmony with what Israel's prophets already said.

Neither does Paul, Peter, John, James or Jude. There is not even a hint of it in Revelation. You are making a case built upon sand.

You've got mule blinders on!

All fulfilled. Jesus is King now, the root and offspring of David.

The phrase 'root and offspring' of David is designed to point the reader back to what GOD irrevocably promised King David concerning His throne and his progeny.
You and so many others simply take the phrase and impose your own definition to it, rather than just accepting the Scriptural definition.

Even the Jews of Jesus Time knew He was the King of David's Throne during His ministry. Or maybe you forgot about "Palm Sunday" and the other many times He was called the Son of David???

Yes, indeed they did and that only reinforces my point. They knew that He was the son of David who was to inherit the throne of David and rule from it. He didn't take it then and He hasn't taken it yet. Mt 25:31
No, I haven't forgotten. The Lord fulfilled half of the prophecy of Zech 9 on that day. The rest of the verse is yet to be fulfilled. The people were singing parts of the Messianic Psalm 118. The Lord said that in the future that they would a second time.

Matthew 12:23
And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

Yes, the son of David and...He will fulfill all that was prophesied concerning the son of David. Thus far, only part has been fulfilled.

Matthew 15:22
And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

Matthew 20:30
And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou Son of David. 31 And the multitude rebuked them, because they should hold their peace: but they cried the more, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou Son of David.

Matthew 21:9
And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest. 15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,

Matthew 22
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Mark 12:35
And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?

All of those verses confirm that the people recognized the Lord Jesus as the promised son of David because of what He was doing. They say nothing about what the son of David will do in the future. But...the same prophets who spoke of Christ's first coming and His activities then, are the same prophets who speak of His second coming and what He will do then.

Luke 1
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel;
for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69
and hath raised up an horn of salvation for us
in the house of his servant David;
70
as he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets,
which have been since the world began:
71
that we should be saved from our enemies,
and from the hand of all that hate us;
72
to perform the mercy promised to our fathers,
and to remember his holy covenant;
73
the oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74
that he would grant unto us,
that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies
might serve him without fear,
75
in holiness and righteousness before him,
all the days of our life.

Zachariah was a Leviite of Israel and was speaking by the HS.
He said that through this promised Messiah, that Israel would be delivered from her enemies and from those that hate them.
Show me where that came to pass.
Israel remained under the foot of Rome and their city, temple and six million of them were not delivered but were destroyed in 70 AD.
Either the Holy Spirit was mistaken(not) or something happened which postponed the fulfillment of the prophecy uttered by Zacharias.

John 7:42
Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

Born in Bethlehem...fulfilled:

Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

In process:

Mic 5:3 Therefore will he give them up,

Yet to be fulfilled and concerns the Day of the Lord and the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel under the rule of Messiah, on this earth:

until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
Mic 5:4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

Acts 13:34
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

When NT writers quote OT in part, they are not erasing the rest of the story found in the prophets.

Isa 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
Isa 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
Isa 55:4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


What the Lord said through His prophets must come to pass. It will not return to Him void.

Acts 15
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. ----- what is that tabernacle? Eph 2 - Jew and Gentile, one new man, being built into a spiritual habitation - we are the temples of the Holy Spirit.

As James says, "After He returns."

Isa_16:5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Romans 1:3
concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

2 Timothy 2:8
Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

These verses and others by the reference to the seed of David affirm that all the promises of GOD to David will come to pass.
Some have...some will, yet!

Revelation 3:7
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Revelation 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

All prophecy concerning Israel's Messiah will be fulfilled.

Take off your mule blinders.

 

[TweetyBird]

Nope, it's in context.
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

The promise is the Holy Spirit per Gal 3, and the new covenant which is the forgiveness of sin once and for all, and eternal life. The NT says nothing about getting the land back. Israel is now living in the physical land believing that it is their eternal dwelling. They have rejected Christ, but for the remnant - which has been, is, and will continue to come to Him until He returns.

GOD promised that the kingdom would be restored to Israel in the land, and the Lord Jesus confirmed that it all would be done by His demonstration that He was Israel's promised Messiah through fulfilling much of what the prophets said that Messiah would do.

Jesus fulfilled it. His Kingdom is not of this world. All who believe in Him have been translated into His kingdom. Heb 11 tells us that the OT saints were looking for a land and a city that is Heavenly and that they would not return to the physical land even if they had the choice to do so, because they, as we as well, are aliens and strangers on this earth – we do not belong here – our future is Heaven come down to a new earth.

Jesus said nothing about restoring Israel to the land. He spoke of the Kingdom of Heaven, not earthly dirt.

No, not of this world. It's of heaven and He instructed Israel to pray that the Kingdom would come and GOD's will be done on this earth as it is in heaven.

Jesus was not speaking of an earthly kingdom, but a Heavenly one.

When Peter mentions 'the Day of the LORD', one must go to OT prophecy to understand what all that it entails.

The Day of the Lord is the day of Judgment.

And, Peter already explained to the leadership of Israel in Acts 3 that if Israel would repent then GOD would send Jesus to complete the rest of prophecy for Israel.

No he did not. You are reading into the text what you want to be there. Jesus restored all things on the cross. He reconciled man to God through His shed blood.

After 40 days of Christ teaching His disciples about the Kingdom, are you so naïve to think that they misunderstood the nature of the Kingdom?

He was teaching them about His kingdom which is not of this world., the Gospel of His shed blood and eternal life. The kingdom of Heaven comes not with observation, it is within.

If GOD had not planned to restore the Kingdom to Israel and the disciples misunderstood, then the Lord Jesus missed the opportunity to correct them about their misunderstanding. If He spent 40 days teaching them about the Kingdom why would He just let it go and leave them in ignorance. That makes no sense.

Apparently, Jesus was not discussing the restoration of Israel with them because they asked about it just before His ascension. Then He told them the power of God was to send them forth to preach the Gospel to the world, not preach or look for the restoration of Israel.

No, He didn't!!!!

He did, althrough His ministry.

And then again not once, but twice in Luke 24. Throughout the NT it is shown to us as well.

Luke 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. 32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46 and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And ye are witnesses of these things. 49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

No, some of it is, and...what is said is all in harmony with the OT prophets concerning GOD's plans for Israel. One simply has to read the short references in the NT and then cross-reference to the specific OT prophecies to find the whole picture.

All but Jesus return has been fulfilled from the OT prophecies. The return and judgment is prophesied of in the NT several times.

What the Lord says is always in harmony with what Israel's prophets already said.

Jesus said He fulfilled their prophesies.

The phrase 'root and offspring' of David is designed to point the reader back to what GOD irrevocably promised King David concerning His throne and his progeny.

Not really. Much of Israel called Him the Son of David during His ministry - and accepted Him as the promise made to David fulfilled, that Jesus was the King of Israel. There is only one King.

You and so many others simply take the phrase and impose your own definition to it, rather than just accepting the Scriptural definition.

They called Him King. Why do you think Pilate had the inscription: “Jesus, King of the Jew” put up over Jesus’ head on the cross?

Matt 21
And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples, 2 saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an *** tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. 3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. 4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, 5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ***, and a colt the foal of an ***.

Matthew 27:11
And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.

36 And sitting down they watched him there; 37 and set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS. 38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, 40 and saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. 41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, 42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. 43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. 44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Mark 11
9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: 10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.

No, I haven't forgotten. The Lord fulfilled half of the prophecy of Zech 9 on that day. The rest of the verse is yet to be fulfilled. The people were singing parts of the Messianic Psalm 118. The Lord said that in the future that they would a second time.

I don’t see anything in Zech 9 that was not fulfilled by Christ. You seem to miss the importance of the spiritual application of prophecy. Most of it is not literal in reference to Christ, but beautiful word pictures of what was to come during His ministry, suffering, death, and resurrection, a shadow. We do not need the shadows, we have the Light of the world. If people were singing a Messianic Psalm, then it was fulfilled as God intended. God does not fulfill pieces and parts, but the whole.

Zachariah was a Leviite of Israel and was speaking by the HS.
He said that through this promised Messiah, that Israel would be delivered from her enemies and from those that hate them.
Show me where that came to pass.

When He died on the cross. Col 2 – having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Israel remained under the foot of Rome and their city, temple and six million of them were not delivered but were destroyed in 70 AD.

See Col 2. It’s no longer about physical Israel after the cross. Rome was judgment for rejecting Christ. The Temple had to come down and the sacrifices had to cease, fulfilling prophecy concerning Israel, per Jesus in Matt 24 and Daniel.

Either the Holy Spirit was mistaken(not) or something happened which postponed the fulfillment of the prophecy uttered by Zacharias.

It was all fulfilled. God ways are not our ways. He fulfills His words how He has chosen to. The NT gives zero detail on all those prophecies, showing that they were all fulfilled. Whatever is important to know after Jesus died is repeated often throughout the NT and one thing that is not mentioned is OT prophecies other than the return of Christ and judgment. The NT is the whole truth of the kingdom of God and one cannot enter His Kingdom without Christ.

until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
Mic 5:4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

Fulfilled in Christ. Each Jew must come to Christ and believe in Him to see these prophecies fulfilled. That is why only in Christ is there spiritual wisdom and understanding - 1 Cor 2.

Isa 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
Isa 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
Isa 55:4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.

All of that is fulfilled in Christ. When one is in Him, all of those promises belong to His children.

As James says, "After He returns."
Isa_16:5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

You did not quote James, but Isaiah. Jesus throne is established now. He is reigning in truth in the Tabernacle of David – Jesus is the Temple, etc, we are His temples. There will never be another Temple built with hands.

These verses and others by the reference to the seed of David affirm that all the promises of GOD to David will come to pass.
Some have...some will, yet!

They have all come to pass. We are all citizens of Heaven, of the Household of Jesus Christ. We have eternal life now. We cannot see what already exists in the Heavenlies. Jesus is King and ruling as the Son of David in this very moment. We cannot see it until the age to come. "Our faith will be our eyes when we see Him", as the song goes.

 

[intojoy]

Remind me, what are we talking about.

 

[Ben Masada]

Remind me, what are we talking about.

We are talking about the real Messianic Jews whose Faith is Judaism and all the others who, as of the time of Elijah loved to straddle the issue between HaShem and Baal. (I Kings 18:20)