A Consistently Pro-Life Message

[Alate_One]

You advocate regulations that say a mother can murder her unborn child,

I don't advocate for them. I've simply said society accepts them at a certain stage of development. No abortion is good.

then you condemn people for not endorsing social welfare programs when those people probably donate the vast majority of money that goes to charities.

You're a hypocrite engaged in attempted emotional blackmail.

No, I'm trying to show you that if you make a consistent and *complete* argument you'll get a lot more people to pay attention to the cause.

If you say no abortion, *but* we'll pay for prenatal care, we'll help you get the child adopted, and we'll pay for birth control until you no longer need it, we'll make sure the child has excellent day care, preschool, and schooling etc. We'll make sure the society is just so that you can work hard to get a better job to support your child. We'll make sure you're not in such an impoverish situation where there are so many unintended pregnancies.

If the society is truly just, there's less demand for abortion anyway. But if you insist on only attacking abortion as the singular problem of society while neglecting the underlying causes then you simply end up with more illegal abortions.

And maybe if you actually LISTENED TO THE MESSAGE. You'd know what I was talking about.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Do you really think God cares if government does something? (especially government that operates from the will of the people)

It's a non-sequitur and always has been.

But even so, we have the example of the year of jubilee was designed as a governmental policy for Israel. Gleanings being left for the poor, etc. Those weren't intended to be voluntary practices.

I'm not talking about ToL specifically, but I have had people I know, claiming to be Christians say things like that around me (in that place called RL). Though we have had people arguing for the death penalty for homosexuality and other things.

I see, so let them die, is about the death penalty, not about starving kids.

Wow how disingenuous you were before being held to the wall on what you said. How pitiful and desperate.

 

[Alate_One]

I see, so let them die, is about the death penalty, not about starving kids.

Wow how disingenuous you were before being held to the wall on what you said. How pitiful and desperate.

Um no. It's everything. People don't want to pay to feed kids (republicans cutting food benefits), they want the death penalty for a variety of reasons. They want to let immigrants die on the way to the USA or other countries. They want to let people die who don't have healthcare (see 2012 republican debate audience). They want to kill everyone in the middle east (make it a parking lot) - that was the one I heard directly, though there may have been some posts along that line too.

This is the problem. You want to pigeonhole me into some political box you've created. You figure if you can come up with some "agenda", you can ignore my message.

What about *all* human beings bearing the image of God do you not get?

:doh:

 

[Stripe]

No, I'm trying to show you that if you make a consistent and *complete* argument you'll get a lot more people to pay attention to the cause.

We do. Abortion is murder and stealing is wrong, even when the government does it.

Where is the inconsistency?

If you say no abortion, *but* we'll pay for prenatal care, we'll help you get the child adopted, and we'll pay for birth control until you no longer need it, we'll make sure the child has excellent day care, preschool, and schooling etc. We'll make sure the society is just so that you can work hard to get a better job to support your child. We'll make sure you're not in such an impoverish situation where there are so many unintended pregnancies.

Or how about people learn to not be murderers without the coercion. :up:

 

[Alate_One]

We do. Abortion is murder and stealing is wrong, even when the government does it.

That's not what the Bible says.

For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

Where is the inconsistency?

Or how about people learn to not be murderers without the coercion. :up:

It's not coercion. It's changing all of society to value all human life and dignity rather than focusing only on the pre-born. It's the true message of scripture.

 

[WizardofOz]

I don't advocate for them. I've simply said society accepts them at a certain stage of development. No abortion is good.

Do you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?

 

[Yorzhik]

No. I'm saying People who insist on no abortions don't want to care for the children.

You are saying that people that insist that murder should stop are hypocrites because they don't help people using economic principles you promote, and thus, those people that try to stop murder should be ignored.

Do you see a difference between murder and letting someone die or suffer greatly when you could easily do something about it?

I don't. But do you realize that economics is a somewhat scientific endeavor? And if you want to know good science behind economics, you should read here.

Amazingly, the majority of people that call for babies to stop being murdered are closer to what you just read than the economics you promote and so they care for more people after they are born than what you promote. Not only that, but the people that try to stop babies from being murdered are also the largest contributors to charity, again proving they do care more about people in general, and those being directly murdered in cold blood in particular.

 

[Alate_One]

Do you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?

I would say pro-life but I'm sure my position isn't quite good enough for some of you. I believe in exceptions for rape and the mother's life at least. I don't like the idea of any abortion, nor do I think they are morally right, I would certainly counsel anyone I knew against them (which did happen once).

The problem is it would be difficult to actually stop abortions in society earlier than a certain point in time simply due to how human reproduction works. So I am most interested in figuring out the best ways to stop abortion before anyone sees it as a "necessity".

By linking restrictions on abortion to protection of all human life, the idea gains credibility and becomes more acceptable and doable since the root causes of people seeking abortion are addressed.

 

[Traditio]

Alate_One, as is so often the case with social liberals, you are simply confusing action (i.e., doing) with passion (suffering or having something done to one). You are confusing acting with not acting.

Do you understand the point and see the application, or need I go into further explanation?

 

[Traditio]

By linking restrictions on abortion to protection of all human life, the idea gains credibility and becomes more acceptable and doable since the root causes of people seeking abortion are addressed.

This is like saying that a prohibition against theft only becomes credible and acceptable if everyone is provided for to their satisfaction.

 

[Stripe]

That's not what the Bible says.

Sure it does. Do not steal.

It's not coercion. It's changing all of society to value all human life and dignity.

Through coercion.

Rather than focusing only on the pre-born.

When it is the unborn being murdered, it is right to focus the battle there.

It's the true message of scripture.

:darwinsm: You wouldn't know scripture if it bit you on the arm.

I believe in exceptions for rape.

You think it's OK to murder a child because his father is a criminal.

The mother's life.

It is never necessary to stop delivering the baby in order to kill him.

I don't like the idea of any abortion, nor do I think they are morally right, I would certainly counsel anyone I knew against them.

Why? Because you don't like a particular "medical procedure"? It certainly isn't because you think abortion is killing a human being.

The problem is it would be difficult to actually stop abortions in society earlier than a certain point in time simply due to how human reproduction works. So I am most interested in figuring out the best ways to stop abortion before anyone sees it as a "necessity".

Which is your way of saying you want these things done before they become messy; before the baby becomes big enough to be recognizable. You don't want to be made to feel uncomfortable.

By linking restrictions on abortion to protection of all human life, the idea gains credibility and becomes more acceptable and doable since the root causes of people seeking abortion are addressed.

If you cared about protecting "all human life," you wouldn't advocate abortion.

 

[The Horn]

There's something wrong with you if you're outraged by a woman having an abortion but would have wanted the fetus she aborted to be denied rights , discriminated against and persecuted if it had been born and grew up to be gay .

 

[Stripe]

There is something wrong with you if you think a baby inside his mother is not a person and are willing to see him murdered. Especially when you hypocritically assert that the person will grow up to be something.

Stupid, stupid Horn.

You contradict yourself at every turn.

 

[The Horn]

Stripe, I didn't say I like abortion and want abortions to happen . I am pro-choice because when abortion is illegal , women will invariably seek abortions anyway and get them , and there is no way to stop this .
I don't want to force any woman to have an abortion and would rather PREVENT as many abortions as possible, just like all pro-choicers .
But if you don't want women to have abortions, at least have the decency respect the rights of children they have who grow up to be gay. This is what I meant . You completely missed the point of what I was saying .

 

[Stripe]

Stripe, I didn't say I like abortion and want abortions to happen .I don't want to force any woman to have an abortion and would rather PREVENT as many abortions as possible, just like all pro-choicers .

And yet you will go to any lengths to protect the practice.

I am pro-choice because when abortion is illegal , women will invariably seek abortions anyway and get them , and there is no way to stop this .

Stupid, stupid Horn. Are you also pro-rape?

But if you don't want women to have abortions, at least have the decency respect the rights of children they have who grow up to be gay.

No.

Murdering unborn children is wrong because, as you say, they grow up because they are people.

You contradict yourself at every turn.

 

[The Horn]

How the heck can you compare abortion to rape ? The overwhelming majority of abortions happen before a fetus has any consciousness or the ability to feel pain . This does not develop until the third trimester , and only a tiny fraction of abortions happen this late, only because of medical emergencies .
The gruesome way anti-choicers always describe abortion , with limbs being torn off , brains removed etc, is totally inaccurate and just emotion-laden language designed to manipulate people .

 

[Ktoyou]

We are NOT animals. If you do not get this, then you will not understand anything about abortion.

 

[Rusha]

How the heck can you compare abortion to rape ?

Seriously ... using force to harm a non-consenting person. Both acts ravage the body of another human being.

Just because the acts are done for different reasons, doesn't mean there are no similarities.

 

[Stripe]

How the heck can you compare abortion to rape ?

You're right. Abortion is much worse.

 

[Stuu]

All those in this thread obsessed with the fantasy of 'pro-life' might remember that there is such a thing as quality of life, and dignity too.

If you don't want an abortion, don't have one.

But don't take it upon yourself to make assumptions about the circumstances and needs of others.

If you don't believe that a woman has an absolute right to decide what happens to her own body, then please give me your name and address and if I ever need a liver transplant I'll come around and collect yours from you. After all, if you have the right to take away the medical consent of others, then I can take yours away from you too.

Right?

Stuart