ECT 2Co 5:16 What does it mean to you?

D

DAN P

Well-known member
Right Divider said:
You would certainly think that if Paul had ever meet Jesus in the flesh, it would be mentioned somewhere in the scripture.
Click to expand...


Hi and in 1 Cor 15:5 , it reads , and that He was SEEN / OPTANOMAI by Cephas and then to the TWELVE !!

In 1 Cor 15:8 it uses the same Greek word for SEEN / OPTANOMIA and we see that Cephas and the Twelve saw Jesus in the flesh and the Paul did MEET Jesus !!

dan p
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
heir said:
We don't know Christ by what he did in His earthly ministry when He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24 KJV) as a minister of the Circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers (Romans 15:8 KJV).
Click to expand...

Had the opportunity to have this same discussion today with an evangelical co-worker (saved? dunno). She has the usual idea of "following Jesus" and all that. I asked her how keeping and preaching the law component of the Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5:19) is going for her. Didn't get a clear answer on that.
 
Right Divider

Right Divider

Body part
DAN P said:
Hi and in 1 Cor 15:5 , it reads , and that He was SEEN / OPTANOMAI by Cephas and then to the TWELVE !!

In 1 Cor 15:8 it uses the same Greek word for SEEN / OPTANOMIA and we see that Cephas and the Twelve saw Jesus in the flesh and the Paul did MEET Jesus !!

dan p
Click to expand...
I meant during His earthly ministry in the flesh.
 
D

Danoh

New member
DAN P said:
Hi and in 1 Cor 15:5 , it reads , and that He was SEEN / OPTANOMAI by Cephas and then to the TWELVE !!

In 1 Cor 15:8 it uses the same Greek word for SEEN / OPTANOMIA and we see that Cephas and the Twelve saw Jesus in the flesh and the Paul did MEET Jesus !!

dan p
Click to expand...

You're mixing apples with oranges, bro.

The passage you are citing is about Christ after His resurretion and IS the issue of His having been seen IN THE FLESH - AFTER His resurrection by those who saw Him after said resurrection IN THE FLESH.

That would not have been true of Paul, true, but that is not the same issue as what 2 Corinthians 5 would be talking about even if 2 Corinthians 5 were talking about Christ after the flesh in the sense that some have wrongly misinterpreted it.

This is one of those issues those earlier within Mid-Acts mis-read (mis-red) a thing into, ran with, propagated, and that others who came later who assert some sort of a so called Mid-Acts Perspective have bought into as valid.

I say so called in that I think it is blinding to allow oneself to end up blindly married to a view as "the end all, be correct; last word; no more further refinement to one's understanding be looked into."

One needs to constantly challenge one's own understanding of one thing or another - constantly.

This is how Mid-Acts was recovered, how it continued to refine for a time, and in some areas more than others, and how it can continue to.

"He who rests...rusts" and "still waters grow stale..."
 
D

Danoh

New member
heir said:
We don't know Christ by what he did in His earthly ministry when He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24 KJV) as a minister of the Circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers (Romans 15:8 KJV).

We know Him as the risen, glorified Lord who appeared to the apostle Paul (Acts 26:16 KJV, 2 Timothy 1:8-10 KJV) with a mystery gospel (Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV, Galatians 1:11-12 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV), doctrine (1 Timothy 1:3 KJV, 2 Timothy 1:13 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:2 KJV 2 Timothy 4:2 KJV , duty (1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) and destination (Ephesians 2:6 KJV, Philippians 3:20-21 KJV, Colossians 3:1-4 KJV to us (Romans 11:13 KJV, Ephesians 3:1-9 KJV), the church, which is Christ's Body (Ephesians 1:22-23 KJV, Colossians 1:24 KJV).
Click to expand...

True, but Paul's point is that where they were looking at things from - the flesh - was off.

He was reminding them of their responsibility to be looking at things, not from a "fleshly" but rather from a "spiritual" frame of reference.

In fact, it is that that allows one to see "things not" only "not seen" but not even not touched on in Scripture.

You are talking about the content of said frame of reference.

Paul is talking about the general frame of reference itself - as in verse 18 in the following.

Ephesians 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
 
D

DAN P

Well-known member
Danoh said:
You're mixing apples with oranges, bro.

The passage you are citing is about Christ after His resurretion and IS the issue of His having been seen IN THE FLESH - AFTER His resurrection by those who saw Him after said resurrection IN THE FLESH.

That would not have been true of Paul, true, but that is not the same issue as what 2 Corinthians 5 would be talking about even if 2 Corinthians 5 were talking about Christ after the flesh in the sense that some have wrongly misinterpreted it.

This is one of those issues those earlier within Mid-Acts mis-read (mis-red) a thing into, ran with, propagated, and that others who came later who assert some sort of a so called Mid-Acts Perspective have bought into as valid.

I say so called in that I think it is blinding to allow oneself to end up blindly married to a view as "the end all, be correct; last word; no more further refinement to one's understanding be looked into."

One needs to constantly challenge one's own understanding of one thing or another - constantly.

This is how Mid-Acts was recovered, how it continued to refine for a time, and in some areas more than others, and how it can continue to.

"He who rests...rusts" and "still waters grow stale..."
Click to expand...


Hi and 1 cor 15:4 points to that , Jesus was Buried and raised the third day AND THEN seen by Cephas , then the twelve and in verse 8 also seen by me , Paul !!

They all saw Jesus after His being RAISED from the dead !!

The Greek word SEEN , means seen , appear , and show one self and many others words !!

dan p
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
musterion said:
Had the opportunity to have this same discussion today with an evangelical co-worker (saved? dunno). She has the usual idea of "following Jesus" and all that. I asked her how keeping and preaching the law component of the Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5:19) is going for her. Didn't get a clear answer on that.
Click to expand...
:up: If she's not following Paul she's following another Jesus.
 
D

Danoh

New member
musterion said:
Speaking on behalf of no other mid-Acts believer (so no one take this as "a MAD doctrine"), I believe Paul was telling his readers that even if there were some among them who may have heard and seen Christ during His exclusive ministry to Israel, no one could now know Him according to that ministry because Israel refused to repent and so blindly stumbled. Therefore, no one could know Him in that context any longer. It has not been continued or transferred to Gentiles in any sense; it had been deactivated by God Himself even while Paul had written those words and remains (for now) completely deactivated.

But the Good News is that it was superseded by better things: the progressive revelation through Paul of God's secret purposes of grace (Rom 16:25; Gal 1:12; Eph 3:8-9).

The point is, if Paul said even to those who might have known Him "according to the flesh" of His ministry to Israel (meaning, for us, according to the four Gospels and early Acts), then that inability to know Him thus HAS to go double for us today.

The old rallying cry of "Get back to the Gospels!" is not just backwards, it is rebellion against the revealed will of God and denies Christ as He has revealed Himself to us.

YOU CANNOT AND WILL NOT KNOW CHRIST THE WAY GOD DESIRES WITHOUT MAJORING ON THE PAULINE REVELATION. SCRIPTURALLY, THAT'S "WHERE IT'S AT." TO DIMINISH OR DISMISS PAUL'S REVELATION IS TO DISMISS CHRIST HIMSELF.
Click to expand...

Great post :thumb:
 
D

Danoh

New member
Tambora said:
What the hell????
This has nothing to do with a restoration of Israel in the future.
If you are going to start this crap in this thread, I will have you removed.
Click to expand...

:rotfl:

Just love this side of you - even when directed at me - sick'm Tam :chuckle:
 
D

Danoh

New member
Interplanner said:
You don't understand a damned thing about the argument. He is UNBELIEVING that is why it is such a paradox that a CHRISTIAN would think that way (that the 2nd coming is basically Judaism's 1st coming finally happening). That is the thinking of an UNBELIEVER!!! Not my quoting it. As far as I'm concerned, you are doing what an unbelieving person in Judaism is doing but 'calling' it Christian for no good, apostolic reason. it makes the whole direction of the bible run backwards.
Click to expand...

Proving once more you are clueless when it comes to what Dispensationalism holds to as to Israel.
 
D

DAN P

Well-known member
musterion said:
In the flesh, though, while ministering to Israel?
Click to expand...


Hi and in Luke 24:38 and in verse 39 it says that Jesus had FLESH and BONES , so that means that He did not have BLOOD !!
And in verse 42 and 43 did EAT and I believe that , is how Paul saw Jesus as Jesus APPEARED /SEEN / OPTANOMAI to Paul !!

dan p
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
DAN P said:
Hi and in Luke 24:38 and in verse 39 it says that Jesus had FLESH and BONES , so that means that He did not have BLOOD !!
And in verse 42 and 43 did EAT and I believe that , is how Paul saw Jesus as Jesus APPEARED /SEEN / OPTANOMAI to Paul !!

dan p
Click to expand...



Literalism is a hoot!
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
SaulToPaul said:
Did the LORD not ascend up to the 3rd heaven?
How you reckon he did that in flesh & blood? Flesh and bone.

Did the LORD not appear and disappear in his resurrected body? "Walk through walls"?
Can you do that?
Click to expand...



No...I wasn't expecting to...I don't know any coherent reason why this matters to the OP's question.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top