Selaphiel

https://homes.yahoo.com/news/mountain-home-norway-christmas-decor-included-100000849.html

Is she your neighbor? :D I like the simple decor.

Thanks for your thoughts.

On hell, would you say hell is a place that is (to use a phrase I've heard before) 'locked from the inside', where it isn't God placing people there in punishment but it's a place for people who have no desire for God? And I think you are right that the Prodigal Son can be instructive.

On the other stuff....
To be fair, I haven't seen anyone explicitly claim that Christians are persecuted, but I think some level of it is implicit in their complaints. And yes, I doubt that's what Jesus meant. :chuckle:

I can partially understand the focus on homosexuality because there is a push in society to make it acceptable. There isn't a similar push in may other sins. But I do think that homosexuality can be an easy target because it is a sin that most Christians have no personal struggle with. And I question how much making a cake for a gay wedding is really causing a Christian baker to violate their beliefs. :idunno:

Just to add one more quick thing to my last message......putting making cakes for a gay marriage in the category of 'persecution' would be scoffed at by Christians who face real persecution now or in the early church, but I think the idea is still there. And the fact that people think suing is the right option for something like this might be even worse because the level of persecution is slim.

Another thought on Bonhoeffer....I think Christians in America (maybe elsewhere) don't take seriously the passages in scripture about bearing suffering and persecution. See the current thread about the Christian calling gay bakeries about making a cake with an anti-gay marriage message on it and the calls in that thread to sue the bakers who denied service. I think Bonhoeffer would have some strong words against that.

1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

I've been thinking about this verse a bit the past couple days. I thought it was the verse that mentioned 'keeping no record of wrongs' but apparently it depends on the translation. In any case, it appears that the Greek supports something to the effect of not imputing or reckon a wrong to someone.

Do you think there is any tension between that aspect of love and hell being a place of eternal punishment? Not necessarily against any idea of punishment, or a place for people who reject God, but an eternal place, where there is no longer any possibility of repentance.

I think I would agree with that too, Sela. All of it.

That's nice. Glad you are getting some time with the family. Hopefully they are bearing gifts for Frank and Charlie. Otherwise it could get pretty ugly. :noid:

I finished the chapter, 'The Visible Community'. It really wasn't bad. I think mostly I didn't enjoy the chapter on the Body of Christ. I had trouble following exactly how he used and talked about the Body of Christ. I think I'll have to re-read parts of it.

I'm not very familiar with Bruggemann. I'm off this week so maybe I'll have some time to catch a video. I also want to watch that video on beauty you sent a while back.

:e4e:

Read a bit more in Bonhoeffer. I haven't been overly impressed with his 'The Body of Christ' and 'The Visible Community' chapters but there have been a couple points that I did like. One was his thoughts on Gal 3:27 and Col 3:11, the verses about there being no Greek or Jew, male or female, in the Body of Christ. I had generally read those verses as saying that salvation is available to everyone regardless of status, which is true, but his words about it being about how we should look at our brethren in Christ were good. We shouldn't look at people based on their status, make assumptions, be a respecter of persons. And tied to this were his thoughts on rebellions and slavery, which I thought was an interesting view. Paul's tolerance of slavery can be a thorny issue.

I have a mixed reaction about his thoughts on Romans 13 and governments.

Hope you are having a good weekend.

:e4e:

Sela, does process philosophy attribute a type of open view to God? Maybe not the way OVers here see it, but in some sense of the term?

Thank you Sela, I listened and will listen to more, now that I have some time to do it.

I can understand how hard it would be to distill something so big down to a few sentences, but I appreciate your doing so.

For Whitehead, consciousness does not preceed experience, rather consciousness is a highly complex form experience.

For some reason, my brain is trying to connect this with determinism in some way, but I don't know how. Am I out in the weeds on that?

What do you mean by subjectivity?

Re: process theology. While I'm quite limited in my knowledge of philosophy, I have an interest in the idea of this process. Once, a professor, just in passing, mentioned that we weren't the same people at that moment as we were before we'd walked into the classroom, or as we would be when we left. Such a small comment, but so profound.

They're learning that memory is like that too. Every time you retrieve a memory, it's changed by the process of that retrieval. In addition, if you mention a memory to someone who shares the same experience. If that person adds even the most imperceptible influence to your memory, it's altered forever. And you can do it yourself, just by remembering an additional detail. Even longtime memories that you think are solidly cast are ephemeral in that way. So is it any surprise that every moment brings irreversible change?

... and with that, have I just laid waste to your philosophical sensibilities, so that life as you knew it is over?

I haven't had time to fully read it but I've appreciated what I've seen from you in Jose Fly's thread about how long society will wait for Jesus' return. I hope to get to that thread soon but it may have to wait until another day.

:e4e:

Also, I'm not too familiar with Luther's theologia crucis. Can you go into a bit more detail on what it means for God to reveal himself in the crucified Christ?

And do you mean his chapter titled "The Conclusion"? I have read that. I agree it is challenging. He reiterates something he said previously which I liked, which is that we are to obey Christ's word, not ask questions or pose problems or try to interpret things. Simple obedience. Definitely not easy to do.

:e4e:

Makes sense. Get a nice thick, dark beer to keep you warm and cozy on a cold night.

On Bonhoeffer, I'm still considering how the gospel is contrasted with an ideology because I feel like some type of ideology is still implicit in the gospel and Christ's call, but I do like his ideas about Christ not being a standard to use and that by being in discipleship we have no power or privilege of our own, mercy turning hearts more than power, and love condemning sin more than judgment.

:chuckle: It'd be difficult for me to get on there too.

Nice. :up: I had one of these the other night. It was good.
http://hopdevil.com/assets/Stone-IPA.png

:e4e:

Merry Christmas, Sela.

Still going to be awhile before I can unspool my brain enough to think through your messages, but I'll be able to pretty soon. Just have to get through Mon. 15th, and it seems like a long way off.

http://www.bing.com/

Have you stood on that boulder? :D