Does Open Theism make us view eschatology differently?

Bladerunner

Active member
Well, that's just the point I'm trying to make. Our interpretation of prophecy is one thing, it's actual fulfillment is quite another and, on top of that, prophecy is not prewritten history.

Take Isaiah 53, for example. We can see in hind sight that it is quite an explicit prophecy about a suffering Messiah but before the fact, it was as hidden from view as it would have been had it not been written at all. Had God's plan of salvation been an prophesied in an overtly explicit manner, Satan would have worked against having it ever happen. As it was, God was wise enough to put it in there sufficient to prove that it was His plan and that the events that unfolded were being orchestrated by Him but He did so in a way that kept His enemies in the dark as to His real intentions. I see no reason to expect that end time prophesied will not be fulfilled in a similar manner.

Although, having said that, God knows His enemies better than they know themselves. It isn't out of the question that He makes it so that the antichrist does what is prophesied because there's just no other reasonable course for him to take as though God has put a hook in his jaw (See Ezekiel 38). God manipulates nations in this way throughout the Old Testament and it isn't difficult for God to know what whole populations of people will do in response to particular circumstances which He is very capable of setting up.
question Clete: God partially blinded Israel on the very first day Jesus rode into Jerusalem. Today they still deny Jesus as their Messiah and we are told that 2/3 of their population (future) will die because of it (indirectly). My question is: Could not God partially blind Satan? After all he is a created being! For we are told what exactly will happen during the 'day of the Lord' and where/what the anti-christ (man of sin and the Son-of Perdition (Satan himself) will be doing during this time. thanks for your time
 

Bladerunner

Active member
Do you think murder will be punishable by death penalty?
We are told those who do not accept Jesus during this period (100yrs) they will be thrown into the Lake of fire and Brimstone. While the threat of death is certainly a deterrent, the though of eternity in the lake of fire would bring on much worse thoughts and fears.
 

Derf

Well-known member
We are told those who do not accept Jesus during this period (100yrs) they will be thrown into the Lake of fire and Brimstone.
Can you give scripture for that? I'm not disagreeing, but that statement is not in the bible, afaik.
While the threat of death is certainly a deterrent, the though of eternity in the lake of fire would bring on much worse thoughts and fears.
That thought would be unlikely to be in their minds, like it is not in the minds of so many today.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
question Clete: God partially blinded Israel on the very first day Jesus rode into Jerusalem. Today they still deny Jesus as their Messiah and we are told that 2/3 of their population (future) will die because of it (indirectly). My question is: Could not God partially blind Satan? After all he is a created being! For we are told what exactly will happen during the 'day of the Lord' and where/what the anti-christ (man of sin and the Son-of Perdition (Satan himself) will be doing during this time. thanks for your time
I'm reminded of God "hardening Pharaoh's heart" in Exodus. How exactly did that happen?

Did God sprinkle some sort of spiritual hardening agent onto Pharaoh’s soul? No.

He performed miracles; acts of power that struck directly at Pharaoh’s pride. Pharaoh fancied himself a god, and when the true God showed up and worked wonders in his land, Pharaoh doubled down. Not because God forced him to, but because that’s who Pharaoh already was.

In fact, Scripture first tells us that Pharaoh hardened his own heart...

Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said​

Only after Pharaoh repeatedly chose defiance does it then say...

Exodus 9:12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart​

In other words, God didn’t initiate Pharaoh’s rebellion, He simply gave it room to run. Once Pharaoh chose the path, God just poured it on thick and intensified Pharaoh's rebellion for His own purposes. The hardening was not mystical, nor was it involuntary. It was the natural consequence of pride clashing with Truth.

The same dynamic can be seen in Israel’s partial blindness. When Jesus entered Jerusalem, hailed as the Son of David, the leaders of Israel were forced to respond. They did, just as God knew they would; they rejected Him, not because they were under some divine spell, but because their expectations, ambitions, and pride were incompatible with the true Messiah. Then, just as with Pharaoh, once they made that decision, God used it. Their blindness was judicial, not arbitrary; it had a cause and it will not last forever.

Now what about Satan? Could God blind him? Of course! He is, after all, a created being, but again, God doesn’t need to. Satan is already blinded by pride. Like Pharaoh, Satan has been shown truth, even to the point of standing in the very presence of God Himself, and yet his response is rebellion. He quotes Scripture to Jesus in the wilderness, showing he knows the written word, but knowing and understanding are not the same thing. His pride twists what he sees and hears.

Incidentally, most prophecies don’t look like prophecies until after they’re fulfilled. Abraham offering Isaac only makes sense as a picture of the cross in hindsight. Isaiah 53 doesn’t obviously scream “Jesus” until you’ve seen Jesus. The prophetic puzzle only comes into focus in the rear view mirror. So, while Satan may know the overt prophecies (Revelation and the like), he doesn’t grasp the full picture (and neither do we, by the way! Your claim that "...we are told what exactly will happen during the 'day of the Lord' and where/what the anti-christ (man of sin and the Son-of Perdition (Satan himself) will be doing during this time" is quite false.). He knows enough to act, but not enough to see how God is using his every move to fulfill a plan he can't comprehend. Pride once again does the blinding.

So in the end, God doesn’t need to mystically override Pharaoh, or Israel, or Satan. He simply lets their own hearts, already veering off course, carry them exactly where He knew they would go and He uses their rebellion to accomplish His will.
 

Nick M

Reconciled by the Cross
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
You speak as though you have no idea what actual justice looks like anymore, Derf!
They would have to see things of old in say the New Mexico territory where a murderer would be hung in front of every one. Or Saddam Hussein. I watched his on cell phone video 5 minutes after the new government executed him.
 

Bladerunner

Active member
Can you give scripture for that? I'm not disagreeing, but that statement is not in the bible, afaik.
which part? I'll start with the first part, the Sheep and Goat Judgement at the beginning of the Millennium.....His 1000 year reign physically on earth. Mat 25:31-46
That thought would be unlikely to be in their minds, like it is not in the minds of so many today.
No, I do not agree...It is in their minds and will only be remembered when the very possibility becomes true.
 

Bladerunner

Active member
Can you give scripture for that? I'm not disagreeing, but that statement is not in the bible, afaik.
Isa 65:20....."There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." Notice that the first part speaks of a child shall die at a 100 years old. All thru the Bible, the Lord Jesus has described Children as being those that blessed...Here we see they at 100 years of age, they either accept Him or as the next part states, (the sinner) shall be accursed and dies. It appears there will be many sinners during the last 100th year as Satan is release from the bottomless pit and bring a Gog/Magog scenario (AGAIN) to surround Jerusalem. This time the Lord is having nothing of it, for He sends fire down and dorvoures their bodies. I have no doubt the souls ended up in the lake of fire and brimstone.
That thought would be unlikely to be in their minds, like it is not in the minds of so many today.
 

Derf

Well-known member
which part? I'll start with the first part, the Sheep and Goat Judgement at the beginning of the Millennium.....His 1000 year reign physically on earth. Mat 25:31-46
Ok, you're talking about accepting Jesus as king at the beginning of 1000 years? But that judgment is based on how they acted prior to His return, not on what they do in the 1000 years, don't you think?
No, I do not agree...It is in their minds and will only be remembered when the very possibility becomes true.
Maybe. But that means you think all mankind currently should also be thinking of it, but they aren't, since it "will only be remembered when the very possibility becomes true". So it isn't "on their minds".
 

Derf

Well-known member
Isa 65:20....."There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." Notice that the first part speaks of a child shall die at a 100 years old. All thru the Bible, the Lord Jesus has described Children as being those that blessed...Here we see they at 100 years of age, they either accept Him or as the next part states, (the sinner) shall be accursed and dies. It appears there will be many sinners during the last 100th year as Satan is release from the bottomless pit and bring a Gog/Magog scenario (AGAIN) to surround Jerusalem. This time the Lord is having nothing of it, for He sends fire down and dorvoures their bodies. I have no doubt the souls ended up in the lake of fire and brimstone.
Just because you have no doubt doesn't mean scripture says it.
 

Bladerunner

Active member
Ok, you're talking about accepting Jesus as king at the beginning of 1000 years? But that judgment is based on how they acted prior to His return, not on what they do in the 1000 years, don't you think?
We are speaking about the sheep and goat Judgements just prior to the millennium as well as judgements at 100 years into the millennium itself. Rem, at the beginning of the millennium, the only believers on earth are the Remnant of Israel.

The Sheep are those nations and the people within them that helped Israel in the past. They will be allowed into the millennium...Hereafter they have 100 years to decide to accept Christ at 100). If Yes, he or she will be saved and accepted into the rest of the millennium.

The "old Man" those who do not accept Jesus at 100 will die as he/she is accursed and since this is a judgement (like that of the Goats), they will also be thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone.

The Goats (people of Nations)that would not help Jesus and His own (Israel) are accursed as Gen 12:3-4 state. These sinners (unbelievers) will die at 100 as he is accursed. Because this was his judgement and not a death awaiting resurrection, he/she will be cast into the lake of Fire.

Through His WORD and His actions that are told to us, only Gentiles will find death during the Millennium for the Remnant of Israel have received the 'New Covenant'. They and their children will not find judgement and death during this time.

Maybe. But that means you think all mankind currently should also be thinking of it, but they aren't, since it "will only be remembered when the very possibility becomes true". So it isn't "on their minds".
Only on the few who find the narrow path...will it be on their minds. Yes, as you said, it is not on the minds of 'many', those who have follow the wide path to destruction.
 

Bladerunner

Active member
Just because you have no doubt doesn't mean scripture says it.
Derf: when you read Isa 65, what do you see? How is it written? to you! Yes, I have NO doubts about the Word of GOD and the fact that it is One Book that is integrated within itself throughout. It has so many wonders in it, so many mysteries. Rem, Jesus tells us the 'end from the beginning'...the very first word: "In the Beginning" (Gen 1:1). I understand from your point of view that the Bible cannot be 'You fill this in' for I only know you do not feel as I do about God's WORD, the Holy Bible
 

Derf

Well-known member
Derf: when you read Isa 65, what do you see?
I see talk about what happens during a golden age period where people will live well past 100 years. Is that what you are referring to?
How is it written? to you!
How do you mean "to me"?
Yes, I have NO doubts about the Word of GOD and the fact that it is One Book that is integrated within itself throughout. It has so many wonders in it, so many mysteries. Rem, Jesus tells us the 'end from the beginning'...the very first word: "In the Beginning" (Gen 1:1). I understand from your point of view that the Bible cannot be 'You fill this in' for I only know you do not feel as I do about God's WORD, the Holy Bible
I don't know what you mean.
 

Bladerunner

Active member
I see talk about what happens during a golden age period where people will live well past 100 years. Is that what you are referring to?
Isaiah's writing frequently jump from one prophecy to another. As in Isa 65:17-19, the time period is after the Millennium. after the White Throne Judgement. The old world of today is no more for a new earth has been created with no sea. Also, a new heavens have also been made.....rem,the 1st heaven -- we are living in...

In Verse 20, Isaiah is speaking of the millennium. A golden period as you have said, there is no doubt. yet, there will be death during this time unlike the time spoken of in v17-19. The death I speak of is only caused by sin itself...The Remnant of Israel have been given the promised "New Covenant" by the Lord. It is evident from Jeremiah 31-35, that while the remnant of Israel are mortal and can have children, none from their group shall see death. Therefore, the only death during the millennium will be of the gentiles. That is what I wanted you to get out of it.
 

Bladerunner

Active member
How God can know the future impacts what He tells us of it. So if He tells us of specific acts of specific people, then either it is because those people existed when the prophecy was written, or someone that existed at that time will be causing the actions, which is the type of determinism that OT allows for.

For instance, Satan, when loosed from the pit at the end of 1000 years, will gather the world and surround the camp of the saints. Satan existed already, and so God knows him and his character, and the type of things he would do after being incarcerated for 1000 years:
Revelation 20:7-9 KJV — And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
What's less clear to me is how God knows that some many of the "nations" will follow Satan, when Christ has been ruling perfectly for 1000 years.
I guess this is where you lose me Derf. In Rev 2:27, the letter to Thyratira, Jesus tells the church that "And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father." While Jesus does rule the millennium perfectly, Isa 65:20 tell us that there are those (gentiles) that will not accept Jesus during the first hundred years of their life.How many children of all the nations of gentiles are under the age of 100 at the end of the 1,000 years and How many of these are sinners that will die but only in this case, they will follow Satan to their end. Does that make sense to you?
 

Derf

Well-known member
Isaiah's writing frequently jump from one prophecy to another. As in Isa 65:17-19, the time period is after the Millennium. after the White Throne Judgement. The old world of today is no more for a new earth has been created with no sea. Also, a new heavens have also been made.....rem,the 1st heaven -- we are living in...

In Verse 20, Isaiah is speaking of the millennium. A golden period as you have said, there is no doubt. yet, there will be death during this time unlike the time spoken of in v17-19. The death I speak of is only caused by sin itself...The Remnant of Israel have been given the promised "New Covenant" by the Lord. It is evident from Jeremiah 31-35, that while the remnant of Israel are mortal and can have children, none from their group shall see death.
"Mortal" means "able to die". Not sure how that fits with "none shall see death".
Therefore, the only death during the millennium will be of the gentiles. That is what I wanted you to get out of it.
I just don't see it as so absolute. The mortals might still die, but not from natural causes, and not as much from murders and such.
 

Derf

Well-known member
I guess this is where you lose me Derf. In Rev 2:27, the letter to Thyratira, Jesus tells the church that "And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father." While Jesus does rule the millennium perfectly, Isa 65:20 tell us that there are those (gentiles) that will not accept Jesus during the first hundred years of their life.How many children of all the nations of gentiles are under the age of 100 at the end of the 1,000 years
If they are still having children, and people live to be 1000, there will be quite a few.
and How many of these are sinners that will die but only in this case, they will follow Satan to their end. Does that make sense to you?
Yes, but I didn't see how @JudgeRightly's description allowed for such.
 

Bladerunner

Active member
"Mortal" means "able to die". Not sure how that fits with "none shall see death".

I just don't see it as so absolute. The mortals might still die, but not from natural causes, and not as much from murders and such.
Yes, something I have questioned myself about...Yet, even in the New Earth and Jerusalem, there will be no death and all who were on earth appear to be mortal. I suspect the Tree of Life and the new Covenant has something to do with this, yet we are not told specifically much of anything for this period of time.
 

Bladerunner

Active member
If they are still having children, and people live to be 1000, there will be quite a few.
I agree but keep in mind that those who do not accept Jesus will at the age of one hundred will die. It is said that those who die at a early age of 100 have been accursed. Thus, one is only going to have the final (900 to 1000 yrs) as who will be sinners and die.
Yes, but I didn't see how @JudgeRightly's description allowed for such.
I looked these up and like you not sure where they fit in. GOD cannot sin which is the only thing the Bible states He cannot do. As in James 1:13.."Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:" This is the only "God Cannot" in the Bible.
 
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