You must be saved to believe the Gospel !

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Clete

Truth Smacker
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I know there are many good Bible teachers out there being promoted by their followers, but I am convinced I must seek the Lord for wisdom, not human interpreters.
Really? Who taught you that?

It wasn't God!
Proverbs 5: 7 Therefore hear me now, my children,
And do not depart from the words of my mouth.
8 Remove your way far from her,
And do not go near the door of her house,
9 Lest you give your [e]honor to others,
And your years to the cruel one;
10 Lest aliens be filled with your [f]wealth,
And your labors go to the house of a foreigner;
11 And you mourn at last,
When your flesh and your body are consumed,
12 And say:
“How I have hated instruction,
And my heart despised correction!
13 I have not obeyed the voice of my teachers,
Nor inclined my ear to those who instructed me!

14 I was on the verge of total ruin,
In the midst of the assembly and congregation.”​
I Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers,.....​
Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,...
Hebrews 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers,....​

Besides that, the book isn't about interpreting anything other than the bible! Furthermore, I've shown you multiple times already how whatever interpretation you've presumably found by "seek the Lord for wisdom" has dropped a doctrine in your lap that was formulated BY ARISTOTLE!!! That's right! Aristotle! A pagan, likely homosexual pervert, who taught people that God existed outside of time because otherwise he'd be a "contingent" being and other such nonsense that has nothing at all to do with the God of scripture.

The fact is that you've gotten the doctrine that you have right now exclusively from human interpreters! The book that I'd like you to simply read for yourself and make your own assessment of, is simply the best tool I've ever discovered to undo the damage that you human teachers have done to your spiritual life.

Ever wonder why there are sometime three or four churches on one block in nearly every city in America, all of which teach different things and all of which claim, as you do, that they've "sought the Lord for wisdom" and preach a biblical doctrine? Have you ever wondered why one church uses the bible to prove to you that you must be dunked in water to be saved while another insists that one must not be water baptized and uses the same bible to make his case? Has it ever occurred to you to ask why one Christian believes that you can lose your salvation while another is quite certain that you cannot? Some Christians say you must avoid unclean foods while other eat whatever they want. Some Christians observe the Passover and all the other Old Testament feast days while others feel free to ignore them entirely. Some Christians say that it is the one who does not work but believes who has been credited with righteousness while others insist that faith without works is dead. There is division after division after division one a seemingly endless variety of issues and every Christian, regardless of which side of which issue they find themselves on, all claim, as you do, that they seek the Lord for wisdom and can argue till their blue in the face with scripture to make their case.

What if there was a way to know who was right and who wasn't? If the Lord Himself showed up at your church and you asked Him to give you a single teaching that would inform you instantly and intuitively who was right and who was wrong on a wide variety of issues that have divided the Christian church for thousands of years, do you suppose He could give such a teaching? If He could, don't you suppose that He would have included such a teaching in the bible?

I'm telling you now that not only does such a teaching exist, it exists in the bible itself and it stated quite unambiguously in a single sentence in the New Testament. It is a sentence that you have undoubtedly read several times and glossed right over as though it weren't there because of something called paradigm blindness but once you see it, you'll never be able to unsee it and it will be as if someone turned on the lights. You'll be able to instantly know which group of Christians is right and which is wrong on very nearly any doctrinal issue you can think of. You'll not only understand that a particular group is wrong (or right) on one particular issue but you'll understand why they are wrong and will be able to intuitively know what they are likely to believe on a whole list of seemingly unrelated doctrinal issues. If you know what someone believes about the timing of rapture you can know with near certainty what they probably believe about water baptism, following the Ten Commandments, tithing, etc.

A great many (i.e. not all) of the most divisive and seemingly unrelated issues in the Christian faith are all resolved by one single sentence that God included for us to read in the New Testament. A teaching that is not complicated in any way. It isn't based on any fancy translation of some obscure Greek word. You don't need a lexicon, dictionary or thesaurus nor does it require any particular translation of the bible. It does not require that you go to a particular church or follow any particular teacher. It is a matter of simply reading any bible in any language that you can understand. It's as clear and easy to understand as it could possibly be.

I don't know how anyone could make a more compelling case for any theology!

One thing is required, however, and it's a whopper! That thing being the removal of the paradigm blindness imposed by all the false teaching you've received throughout your life. The more false teaching and the more time, effort and money you've spent on studying it, the thicker and more stubborn the paradigm. When I was a marriage councilor, many years ago, we referred to people who were resistant to accepting something that conflicted with their current mode of thinking as being "entrench". When it comes to theology, it is pastors who are the most entrenched. Once a person has invested what it takes to graduate from seminary, the trench they've dug has such steep walls that getting them to carve a set of steps to get out is very nearly impossible. No matter how great the potential reward, it looks to such a person as too high a price to pay to forsake all they've done to get to where they are in order to take a different path. It is an understandable tragedy but a tragedy nonetheless.

Don't be that guy!

You don't even have to read the whole book! Just give me the first four chapters! Just read four chapters of a book that doesn't try to do anything at all but cause you to see past the teachings of men and understand the bible for what it plainly states.

Clete
 

marke

Well-known member
Really? Who taught you that?

It wasn't God!
Proverbs 5: 7 Therefore hear me now, my children,​
And do not depart from the words of my mouth.​
8 Remove your way far from her,​
And do not go near the door of her house,​
9 Lest you give your [e]honor to others,​
And your years to the cruel one;
10 Lest aliens be filled with your [f]wealth,​
And your labors go to the house of a foreigner;​
11 And you mourn at last,​
When your flesh and your body are consumed,​
12 And say:​
“How I have hated instruction,​
And my heart despised correction!​
13 I have not obeyed the voice of my teachers,
Nor inclined my ear to those who instructed me!
14 I was on the verge of total ruin,​
In the midst of the assembly and congregation.”​
I Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers,.....​
Ephesians 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,...
Hebrews 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers,....​

Besides that, the book isn't about interpreting anything other than the bible! Furthermore, I've shown you multiple times already how whatever interpretation you've presumably found by "seek the Lord for wisdom" has dropped a doctrine in your lap that was formulated BY ARISTOTLE!!! That's right! Aristotle! A pagan, likely homosexual pervert, who taught people that God existed outside of time because otherwise he'd be a "contingent" being and other such nonsense that has nothing at all to do with the God of scripture.

The fact is that you've gotten the doctrine that you have right now exclusively from human interpreters! The book that I'd like you to simply read for yourself and make your own assessment of, is simply the best tool I've ever discovered to undo the damage that you human teachers have done to your spiritual life.

Ever wonder why there are sometime three or four churches on one block in nearly every city in America, all of which teach different things and all of which claim, as you do, that they've "sought the Lord for wisdom" and preach a biblical doctrine? Have you ever wondered why one church uses the bible to prove to you that you must be dunked in water to be saved while another insists that one must not be water baptized and uses the same bible to make his case? Has it ever occurred to you to ask why one Christian believes that you can lose your salvation while another is quite certain that you cannot? Some Christians say you must avoid unclean foods while other eat whatever they want. Some Christians observe the Passover and all the other Old Testament feast days while others feel free to ignore them entirely. Some Christians say that it is the one who does not work but believes who has been credited with righteousness while others insist that faith without works is dead. There is division after division after division one a seemingly endless variety of issues and every Christian, regardless of which side of which issue they find themselves on, all claim, as you do, that they seek the Lord for wisdom and can argue till their blue in the face with scripture to make their case.

What if there was a way to know who was right and who wasn't? If the Lord Himself showed up at your church and you asked Him to give you a single teaching that would inform you instantly and intuitively who was right and who was wrong on a wide variety of issues that have divided the Christian church for thousands of years, do you suppose He could give such a teaching? If He could, don't you suppose that He would have included such a teaching in the bible?

I'm telling you now that not only does such a teaching exist, it exists in the bible itself and it stated quite unambiguously in a single sentence in the New Testament. It is a sentence that you have undoubtedly read several times and glossed right over as though it weren't there because of something called paradigm blindness but once you see it, you'll never be able to unsee it and it will be as if someone turned on the lights. You'll be able to instantly know which group of Christians is right and which is wrong on very nearly any doctrinal issue you can think of. You'll not only understand that a particular group is wrong (or right) on one particular issue but you'll understand why they are wrong and will be able to intuitively know what they are likely to believe on a whole list of seemingly unrelated doctrinal issues. If you know what someone believes about the timing of rapture you can know with near certainty what they probably believe about water baptism, following the Ten Commandments, tithing, etc.

A great many (i.e. not all) of the most divisive and seemingly unrelated issues in the Christian faith are all resolved by one single sentence that God included for us to read in the New Testament. A teaching that is not complicated in any way. It isn't based on any fancy translation of some obscure Greek word. You don't need a lexicon, dictionary or thesaurus nor does it require any particular translation of the bible. It does not require that you go to a particular church or follow any particular teacher. It is a matter of simply reading any bible in any language that you can understand. It's as clear and easy to understand as it could possibly be.

I don't know how anyone could make a more compelling case for any theology!

One thing is required, however, and it's a whopper! That thing being the removal of the paradigm blindness imposed by all the false teaching you've received throughout your life. The more false teaching and the more time, effort and money you've spent on studying it, the thicker and more stubborn the paradigm. When I was a marriage councilor, many years ago, we referred to people who were resistant to accepting something that conflicted with their current mode of thinking as being "entrench". When it comes to theology, it is pastors who are the most entrenched. Once a person has invested what it takes to graduate from seminary, the trench they've dug has such steep walls that getting them to carve a set of steps to get out is very nearly impossible. No matter how great the potential reward, it looks to such a person as too high a price to pay to forsake all they've done to get to where they are in order to take a different path. It is an understandable tragedy but a tragedy nonetheless.

Don't be that guy!

You don't even have to read the whole book! Just give me the first four chapters! Just read four chapters of a book that doesn't try to do anything at all but cause you to see past the teachings of men and understand the bible for what it plainly states.

Clete
Proverbs 19:27. Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

Jeremiah 17:5. Thus saith the Lord, Cursed be the man that trusts in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Proverbs 19:27. Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

Jeremiah 17:5. Thus saith the Lord, Cursed be the man that trusts in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.
PRECISELY the advice I'm trying to get you to take! Indeed, this response amounts almost to a lie. Are you trying to tell me that you formulated your doctrine on your own; that you've never read a book about Christian doctrine; that you've never sat under another Christian man's teaching; that you've never made any attempt to teach someone else?

All I'm trying to do is to get you to see that it is YOUR doctrine that is the doctrine of men! Your doctrine is the unbiblical one. Your doctrine is the one that began with Aristotle and Plato.

Don't be a hypocrite! Accept your own advice! Take steps to find out whether what I'm telling you is true and to move your doctrine away from vain philosophies of the pagan Greeks! What are you afraid of, that I'm right?! No one is asking you to believe a word of The Plot because of who wrote it. I don't believe a single word of what Bob Enyart says because it is Bob Enyart who said it. I accept his teaching on the same basis that I accept anyone's teaching, the only basis upon which anyone aught to ever accept any teaching whatsoever. regardless of who it comes from - the scripture and sound reason. If any teaching I present, whether in my own words or in the words of another, is believed by you to be contrary to either the scripture or sound reason, I'd expect you to argue it and to keep on arguing it until the truth is found. One must be convinced in their own mind that their doctrine is true. That's the only way this religion works, regardless of what your pagan Greek teachers have taught you to the contrary.

How do you know, by the way, that you didn't show up here because God Himself wanted you to find someone who would point you to the truth? I do not claim that this is the case, although it could be, but what I do claim is that by your own doctrinal standard, you'd have no way of knowing otherwise.

Clete
 

marke

Well-known member
PRECISELY the advice I'm trying to get you to take! Indeed, this response amounts almost to a lie. Are you trying to tell me that you formulated your doctrine on your own; that you've never read a book about Christian doctrine; that you've never sat under another Christian man's teaching; that you've never made any attempt to teach someone else?
I have read commentaries and listened to preachers. No writer or preacher I have ever read or heard has taught me to believe exactly what I believe in every detail. When troubled by verses as a young Christian I would read commentaries, listen to preachers, talk to Bible scholars, and so forth, but it was not until the Lord finally cleared up my thinking as I prayed to Him for wisdom the whole time that my views became solidified.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I have read commentaries and listened to preachers. No writer or preacher I have ever read or heard has taught me to believe exactly what I believe in every detail. When troubled by verses as a young Christian I would read commentaries, listen to preachers, talk to Bible scholars, and so forth, but it was not until the Lord finally cleared up my thinking as I prayed to Him for wisdom the whole time that my views became solidified.
Right, so now it's God Himself who has taught you you're openly irrational doctrine.

You're quickly proving yourself to be a lunatic.
 

marke

Well-known member
Right, so now it's God Himself who has taught you you're openly irrational doctrine.

You're quickly proving yourself to be a lunatic.
Acts 26:24
And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.
 

marke

Well-known member
You're not helping.

"But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
"For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Jesus came to die for the sins of the whole world, even though He initially came to His own and they received Him not, prompting Him to send Christians into all the world to preach and teach the Bible to every creature so that whosoever would come to Him by faith could be saved.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Jesus came to die for the sins of the whole world, even though He initially came to His own and they received Him not, prompting Him to send Christians into all the world to preach and teach the Bible to every creature so that whosoever would come to Him by faith could be saved.
Error, and a attack on Salvation by Grace, and promoting salvation conditioned on man/works.
 

marke

Well-known member
Error, and a attack on Salvation by Grace, and promoting salvation conditioned on man/works.
When seeking forgiveness and salvation, make sure you are on the right path.
Luke 13:24
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
1 Cor 1:18 shows that a person must be in a saved state to believe the Gospel.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Now in contrast to the perishing lost, to whom the Cross preaching is foolishness, to them who are being saved, its the power of God ! Cp Rom 1:16

In 1 Cor 1:18 "us which are saved" is a present tense participle, indicating they are in a saved state, just like Paul was at the time, in a saved state, so he uses the pronoun plural US.

So we must be in a saved state to believe the Gospel, in perfect agreement with the contrast of being in a lost state, the Gospel is hidden resulting in believing not 2 Cor 4:3-4 !
 

JudgeRightly

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1 Cor 1:18 shows that a person must be in a saved state to believe the Gospel.

No, it doesn't.

Otherwise you have scripture going against scripture.

Paul says, quite explicitly:

"Confession is made UNTO salvation."

Follow his line of reasoning, B57, rather than your a priori assumptions:

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!”But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “ Lord, who has believed our report?”So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: “Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world.”But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: “I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”But Isaiah is very bold and says: “I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.” - Romans 10:9-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:9-21&version=NKJV

"If you confess and believe, you will be saved."
"With the heart one believes unto righteousness."
"With the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
"Whoever believes will not be put to shame."
"The same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him."
"Whoever calls shall be saved."
"How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?"
"How shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?"
"How shall they hear without a preacher?"
"How shall they preach unless they are sent?"
"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
"Have they not heard? Yes indeed: “Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world."

Ordo salutis:
  1. Preacher is sent, the sound of the word of God has gone out to all the earth, and the words to the end of the world.
  2. Preacher preaches Christ.
  3. People hear.
  4. Those who hear can (not necessarily "will") believe, have faith
  5. Those who believe in their hearts will call.
  6. Those who call, who confess with their mouth, shall be saved, made righteous.

Those who believe are NOT saved already, otherwise you're asserting that they were saved to believe so that they would be saved, which is not only redundant, but not what the Bible says.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

It doesn't say what you want it to say.

It says that to those who are ALREADY SAVED, it's the power of God.

We don't need to be saved again! The Power of God is what saved us!

Now in contrast to the perishing lost, to whom the Cross preaching is foolishness, to them who are being saved, its the power of God ! Cp Rom 1:16

In 1 Cor 1:18 "us which are saved" is a present tense participle, indicating they are in a saved state, just like Paul was at the time, in a saved state, so he uses the pronoun plural US.

So we must be in a saved state to believe the Gospel, in perfect agreement with the contrast of being in a lost state, the Gospel is hidden resulting in believing not 2 Cor 4:3-4 !

Again, We must be in a saved state to believe the Gospel to be saved?

We're already saved! We don't need to be saved again!
 
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