Would you pay a tax to ISIS to keep your life?

[CabinetMaker]

This is remarkably difficult question to answer.

If ISIS showed up on my door step demanding I pay a tax to be Christian my first inclination is to pay that tax with hot lead. If they show up on my door step then they are an invading army taking over America. If they are not an army then they are certainly traitors out destroy the ideals of a country that guarantees religious freedom for all.

On the other hand, the first century Christians refused to fight and were routinely executed in the coliseum and they peacefully accepted their fate. They would not deny Christ. But paying a tax is not denying Christ.

It is a very interesting question.

 

[Desert Reign]

Why do you pay money to Washington DC?

I don't.

So there.

This is remarkably difficult question to answer.

If ISIS showed up on my door step demanding I pay a tax to be Christian my first inclination is to pay that tax with hot lead. If they show up on my door step then they are an invading army taking over America. If they are not an army then they are certainly traitors out destroy the ideals of a country that guarantees religious freedom for all.

On the other hand, the first century Christians refused to fight and were routinely executed in the coliseum and they peacefully accepted their fate. They would not deny Christ. But paying a tax is not denying Christ.

It is a very interesting question.

Sure, but the issue of the Islamic tax on infidels is already well known and defined. There is no need to hypothesise about it. It is like paying protection money to the Mafia.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Why do you pay money to Washington DC?

Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”

 

[PureX]

This is remarkably difficult question to answer.

If ISIS showed up on my door step demanding I pay a tax to be Christian my first inclination is to pay that tax with hot lead. If they show up on my door step then they are an invading army taking over America. If they are not an army then they are certainly traitors out destroy the ideals of a country that guarantees religious freedom for all.

On the other hand, the first century Christians refused to fight and were routinely executed in the coliseum and they peacefully accepted their fate. They would not deny Christ. But paying a tax is not denying Christ.

It is a very interesting question.

There are some ideals worth fighting and dying for. But I don't see how holding onto money would be one of them. Nor, frankly, do I see how proclamations of religious affiliation would be one of them, either. After all, no one can force us to change what we believe in our hearts and minds. All they can do is make us say words that they want to hear, but that we don't want to say. And I don't see how that would warrant my death, to avoid. After all, only an idiot would believe anything a person says when forced to say it at gunpoint. And God certainly wouldn't! I wouldn't die over words.

On the other hand, prolonged enslavement is the negation of human life, even though the enslaved are still technically alive. To be alive, but not free, isn't really living for a human being. It's just existing. And for that reason I think that kind of enslavement is worth frighting and dying to escape.

 

[Traditio]

1. It is not permissible to deny Jesus in order to avoid death. Consider the example of the early Christian martyrs. In answer to PureX, consider how easy it would have been for an early Christian to say: "Step on that cross? Sure. Deny that Jesus is Lord? Will do. Pray and sacrifice to Apollo? I'm on it! A mere charade! I don't believe any of these things."

But they didn't. They preferred death rather than to deny the Lord.

2. I don't think that paying a tax necessarily constitutes a denial of Jesus. That said, if you pay the tax, you are (at least materially) funding terrorist activities. This may (though I do not assert positively that it does) constitute a crime against the State. It's essentially the same question as whether it's permissible to pay a ransom to a kidnapper or to pay off the mafia. All of this constitutes at least material support for criminal activity and itself may be a crime against the State.

 

[Nick M]

If ISIS showed up on my door step demanding I pay a tax to be Christian my first inclination is to pay that tax with hot lead.

I was thinking specifically around 230 gr hardball. In your case if you have Colt 45 for Cowboy shooting, aka 45LC, that will do about the same damage, if not more.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”

OK, so I'll grant your premise for the sake of argument. This passage is saying to pay taxes. If that's the case than that means paying taxes to ISIS as well. On the other hand, if you're going to say that it applies only to governments that provide some semblance of justice than you need to provide a standard for determining that.

@Desert Reign:

I don't.

So there.

OK. Than at least you're consistent. I don't see how we can say "I'd rather die than pay a tax to ISIS" unless you would similarly say you won't give money to a government that funds the murder of little babies (American gov.)

 

[CabinetMaker]

OK, so I'll grant your premise for the sake of argument. This passage is saying to pay taxes. If that's the case than that means paying taxes to ISIS as well. On the other hand, if you're going to say that it applies only to governments that provide some semblance of justice than you need to provide a standard for determining that.

Does raise some interesting questions. Does paying the tax mean you surrender and accept ISIS as the legal government? Do you pay the tax so that you can work to undermine them and fight against them as an underground movement?

 

[Ktoyou]

Would you pay? Why or why not?

I would not pay! They can cut me head off if they have the power, but I would never pay them. Being in a weaker place to the Muslims would be detestable to me, I would rather make them pay taxes to me, no other possibility, except we not have a personal conflict/

 

[Angel4Truth]

No.

When I became a Christian, it wasn't to support murderers, child rapists and idolaters.

If you pay taxes at all, you are already supporting things you dont agree with.

 

[PureX]

1. It is not permissible to deny Jesus in order to avoid death. Consider the example of the early Christian martyrs. In answer to PureX, consider how easy it would have been for an early Christian to say: "Step on that cross? Sure. Deny that Jesus is Lord? Will do. Pray and sacrifice to Apollo? I'm on it! A mere charade! I don't believe any of these things."

But they didn't. They preferred death rather than to deny the Lord.

And I'm sure that Jesus wept at their grandiose foolishness.

2. I don't think that paying a tax necessarily constitutes a denial of Jesus. That said, if you pay the tax, you are (at least materially) funding terrorist activities. This may (though I do not assert positively that it does) constitute a crime against the State. It's essentially the same question as whether it's permissible to pay a ransom to a kidnapper or to pay off the mafia. All of this constitutes at least material support for criminal activity and itself may be a crime against the State.

My friend Bob used to say: "Ya gotta ask yourself; is this really the hill I'm willing to die for?"

Refusing to pay the tax just shows the oppressors who you are, so they can oppress you all the more. It would be far wiser to pay the tax, and then attack their rule in ways that you could get away with, so that you could continue to attack them again and again.

 

[kmoney]

How much is the tax?

:idunno: How much would you be willing to pay?

 

[kmoney]

Evidently the tax is $250 and $500 for a married couple.

Ignore my last question. So....is that low enough to pay?

 

[kmoney]

I think that if we aren't going to pay ISIS we shouldn't pay Washington DC either. Washington DC gives some of that money to planned parenthood who uses it to kill unborn children. I really don't see how DC is any better with that in mind.

But of course, Americans will always be hypocrites. We want to think that we're somehow "less barbaric", when abortion is a massive monument to the fact that we're not.

That isn't exactly how I meant the question, but that is a different way to look at it. I was asking from the angle of....is paying a tax a form of denying Christ. But giving material support to a terrorist group is certainly another dilemma. And comparing it to what the US gov't does brings in the question of where the line is.

 

[kmoney]

Would I give my wallet to a thief, at gunpoint? Of course I would! And it wouldn't matter to me in the least what the thief's religion is. Because my life is worth more than any amount of money I might have in my wallet. Or have anywhere else, for that matter.

Is that completely comparable to ISIS, though? I don't think it is if we begin to consider the aspect of giving financial support to terrorists.

 

[Traditio]

And I'm sure that Jesus wept at their grandiose foolishness.

Do you have any evidence for this? From the Scriptures? From Tradition? Because if we accept what Jesus says in the gospels, what you are saying isn't true.

"But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 10:33).

Not to mention what Jesus says in the last supper about St. Peter denying him three times before the rooster crows.

Did St. Peter sin three times or not? If he did not, then why did Jesus ask St. Peter three times whether he loved Him?

And again, there's the practical example of St. Peter and St. Paul, both of whom were crowned with martyrdom.

"Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake" (Matthew 5:11).

You can't say what you are saying and claim to be a Christian.

 

[Nick M]

You can't say what you are saying and claim to be a Christian.

You are right on two points.

1. He isn't.
2 You know them by their fruit , which is what a person says they believe.

 

[Traditio]

You are right on two points.

1. He isn't.
2 You know them by their fruit , which is what a person says they believe.

Against 2 is Matthew 7:21-23. Willing to confess one's faith in Jesus verbally when the circumstances are appropriate is a necessary, not a sufficient condition for being a Christian.

I like to view it on the analogy of a lover. Simply saying "I love x" doesn't mean that you really love x. But if you really love x, you probably won't publically denounce x.

 

[ebenz47037]

Do you have any evidence for this? From the Scriptures? From Tradition? Because if we accept what Jesus says in the gospels, what you are saying isn't true.

"But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 10:33).

Not to mention what Jesus says in the last supper about St. Peter denying him three times before the rooster crows.

Did St. Peter sin three times or not? If he did not, then why did Jesus ask St. Peter three times whether he loved Him?

And again, there's the practical example of St. Peter and St. Paul, both of whom were crowned with martyrdom.

"Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake" (Matthew 5:11).

You can't say what you are saying and claim to be a Christian.

It's a very rare occasion that I can say that I agree with Traditio. Matthew 10:33 is the main reason that I lean toward saying no if I were told to pay the tax. I look at it as denying my faith in Christ.

 

[patrick jane]

It's a very rare occasion that I can say that I agree with Traditio. Matthew 10:33 is the main reason that I lean toward saying no if I were told to pay the tax. I look at it as denying my faith in Christ.

good post -