Will Only A Few Human Beings Be Saved? No.

Lilstu

New member
Consider an alternative point of view:

Matthew 16:6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
Does this verse sound like Jesus thinks leaven is a good thing?

1 Corinthians 5:6-8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? 7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

I think these verses make the the point that leaven is corruption.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
JAGG sitting here saying he doesn't hold to 'easy beievism' or universalism, but still claiming that everybody and their brother are going to be saved is why this debate isn't really a debate at all- it's just somebody refusing to admit they are perpetuating two diametrically opposed ideas.
Don't worry, only the "elect" will be saved, you're safe & sound
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Nanja

Noah would have been a false preacher 2Pet. 2:5 if he would have, for instance, told those outside the world of himself and his family Gen. 6:18, that God would save them if they would only repent, or call upon His Name, offering them a false hope that God would allow them into the Ark [which was a Type of Christ] to escape God's coming destruction Gen. 6:7.

Amen Sister!

On the other hand though, if Noah in his preaching, would have mentioned who the only ones were that God said were to enter into the Ark and be Saved from the Wrath of God Gen. 6:18; 1 Pet. 3:20, he would have in fact been preaching God's Election by Discriminating Grace Gen. 6:8. For only the World of God's Elect Chosen In Union with Christ Eph. 1:4-5; 2 Tim. 1:9; Rom. 11:5 including Noah and his family, Live Spiritually In The Ark, Hand Picked by God In Christ.

But the rest of the world of humanity shall remain outside of Him and His Salvation; them which God appointed to be condemned for their sins against Him Prov. 16:4; Jude 1:4; Rom. 1:18.


Agreed!
 

JAGG

New member
Matthew 16:6 And Jesus said to them, “Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
Does this verse sound like Jesus thinks leaven is a good thing?

1 Corinthians 5:6-8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? 7 Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

I think these verses make the the point that leaven is corruption.

Lilstu,

You are correct that "leaven" in Scripture is often used in a bad sense. But that fact does not mean that "leaven" cannot also be used in a good sense. Leaven does not always represent evil in Holy Scripture, for example in Leviticus 7:13 God commands the use of leaven in an offering. "Along with their fellowship offering of thanksgiving they are to present an offering with thick loaves of bread made with yeast."

Argument (1) Leaven does not always represent evil in Holy Scripture (Lev.7:13).

Argument (2) If the leaven of Matthew 13:33 represents evil, then we could correctly paraphrase the Lord Jesus in Matthew 13:33 as saying this: "He told them still another parable: The kingdom of heaven/Christian Church is like evil that a woman took and mixed into about sixty pounds of flour until it worked all through the kingdom of Heaven/Christian Church."
This is exactly what the Lord Jesus would be teaching IF, the leaven of Matthew 13:33 represents evil ---- and such an interpretation would be strange, weird, and unnecessary, and in direct conflict with "I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it."

♦ There are some other arguments to support leaven as representing the good in Mt. 13:33. Maybe I will dig them up later on for a thread on it?

♦ I note that the Dispensationalist and the Postmillennialist commentators are predictably lined up with their eschatological tribe on the interpretation of the leaven in Mt.13:33. The Premillennialists/Dispensationalists resist the Postmillennialist interpretation that the leaven represents the eventual Christianization of the world in accordance with the commands of the Lord Jesus at the end of Matthew's gospel: "Go ye into all the world and make disciples of all nations" that is to say, Go and Christianize the entire world.
 

JAGG

New member
Regarding the "leaven" of Matthew 13:33:

Some thread readers may be interested to know that the Albert Barnes Notes agrees that the leaven of Mt. 13:33 represents the good.

Says Albert Barnes on Mt. 13:33:

"The kingdom of heaven - The meaning here is the same as in the last parable;[ie the Mustard Seed] perhaps, however, intending to denote more properly the secret and hidden nature of piety in the soul. The other parable [Mustard Seed] declared the “fact” that the gospel would greatly spread, and that piety in the heart would greatly increase. This [the Leaven] states the “way” or “mode” in which it would be done.

It [ie the Leaven] is secret, silent, steady; pervading all the faculties of the soul and all the kingdoms of the world, as leaven, or yeast, though hidden in the flour, and though deposited only in one place, works silently until all the mass is brought under its influence.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/matthew-13.html

Note: The fact that Albert Barnes agrees with my position is NOT put forth as an argument. I merely note that he does agree.

Its very easy to locate other commentators that disagree with my view of the leaven of Mt. 13:33. Most any Dispensationalist or Premillennialist would disagree with it.
 

JAGG

New member
Regarding the interpretation of the "leaven" in Mt.13:33:

Some thread readers may be interested in knowing that the great Calvinist theologian Benjamin B. Warfield agrees that the "leaven" of Mt. 13:33 represents the good.

Says B.B. Warfield regarding the parables of the Mustard Seed and the parable of the Leaven: These parables "announce the complete conquest of the world by His Kingdom."

Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield, Biblical and Theological Studies, page 339

(Again, I do NOT present the above as an argument. Merely as an interesting observation.

:) Its always nice to have Warfield on your side, but that isn't an argument.)

______________

Post 56 this thread, Adam Clarke and Matthew Henry agree with Warfield and Albert Barnes on the interpretation of Mt. 13:33, that the "leaven" represents the good. So what? So the claim that the "leaven" of Mt.13:33 represents the good, is a respectable theological position held by serious Christian scholarship. That's the only point of listing the supporting commentators. I do NOT present this listing as an argument. It isn't an argument.
 

Lilstu

New member
Lilstu,

You are correct that "leaven" in Scripture is often used in a bad sense. But that fact does not mean that "leaven" cannot also be used in a good sense. Leaven does not always represent evil in Holy Scripture, for example in Leviticus 7:13 God commands the use of leaven in an offering. "Along with their fellowship offering of thanksgiving they are to present an offering with thick loaves of bread made with yeast."

Argument (1) Leaven does not always represent evil in Holy Scripture (Lev.7:13).

Argument (2) If the leaven of Matthew 13:33 represents evil, then we could correctly paraphrase the Lord Jesus in Matthew 13:33 as saying this: "He told them still another parable: The kingdom of heaven/Christian Church is like evil that a woman took and mixed into about sixty pounds of flour until it worked all through the kingdom of Heaven/Christian Church."
This is exactly what the Lord Jesus would be teaching IF, the leaven of Matthew 13:33 represents evil ---- and such an interpretation would be strange, weird, and unnecessary, and in direct conflict with "I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it."

♦ There are some other arguments to support leaven as representing the good in Mt. 13:33. Maybe I will dig them up later on for a thread on it?

♦ I note that the Dispensationalist and the Postmillennialist commentators are predictably lined up with their eschatological tribe on the interpretation of the leaven in Mt.13:33. The Premillennialists/Dispensationalists resist the Postmillennialist interpretation that the leaven represents the eventual Christianization of the world in accordance with the commands of the Lord Jesus at the end of Matthew's gospel: "Go ye into all the world and make disciples of all nations" that is to say, Go and Christianize the entire world.

They roasted bulls and goats because they represented sin just as leaven represents sin.

But look and see Jesus doubled down on his prophecy that Christianity would become corrupt.

Look at the previous verses in Matthew chapter 13.......
“The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; 32 and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.”

We know the mustard tree is not a real tree....it is like a tree....a counterfeit tree...really a big bush.
Real trees are often symbolic of the Kingdom but a counterfeit tree is the symbol of a fake Christianity.
And the birds come and live in its branches.
In the Bible, birds are symbolic of evil.
Jeremiah 5:27
‘Like a cage full of birds, So their houses are full of deceit; Therefore they have become great and rich.

Speaking of the evil king of Babylon….
Ezekiel 17:23
On the high mountain of Israel I will plant it, that it may bring forth boughs and bear fruit and become a stately cedar. And birds of every kind will nest under it; they will nest in the shade of its branches.


Speaking of Pharaoh …..
Ezekiel 31:6
‘All the birds of the heavens nested in its boughs, And under its branches all the beasts of the field gave birth, And all great nations lived under its shade.


Revelation 18:2
And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird.

There are other bird verses...they always are evil eating the seeds and causing trouble
 

Lilstu

New member
Dear Jagg,
All these supposed experts are part of the problem with the corruption of Christianity IMO
They have been blinded and they lead people into the pit.
 

JAGG

New member
Regarding the interpretation of the "leaven" in Mt.13:33:

Some thread readers may be interested in knowing that the great Calvinist theologian Benjamin B. Warfield agrees that the "leaven" of Mt. 13:33 represents the good.

Says B.B. Warfield regarding the parables of the Mustard Seed and the parable of the Leaven: These parables "announce the complete conquest of the world by His Kingdom."

Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield, Biblical and Theological Studies, page 339

(Again, I do NOT present the above as an argument. Merely as an interesting observation.

:) Its always nice to have Warfield on your side, but that isn't an argument.)

______________

Post 56 this thread, Adam Clarke and Matthew Henry agree with Warfield and Albert Barnes on the interpretation of Mt. 13:33, that the "leaven" represents the good. So what? So the claim that the "leaven" of Mt.13:33 represents the good, is a respectable theological position held by serious Christian scholarship. That's the only point of listing the supporting commentators. I do NOT present this listing as an argument. It isn't an argument.

I was glad to discover that the Expositor's Bible Commentary agrees with Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, Matthew Henry, and B.B. Warfield that the leaven of Mt.13:33 represents the good and that the good eventually leavens the entire lump of dough (the "dough" which in my view represents the whole world.)

Expositor's Bible Commentary (William Nicoll)
The Expositor's Bible is one of the most-recognized standards of expository commentaries. It was written by twenty-nine eminent scholars of the day who were also full-time preachers. These writers also represent every important branch of Protestantism . . . [says this: . . .

. . . The second pair-"The Mustard Seed" and "The Leaven"-set forth the growth of the kingdom notwithstanding the many obstacles it must encounter, the one indicating its growth as recognisable to the observant eye, the other its pervasive power as permeating society.

This twofold view of the development of the kingdom is in the same line of thought as the illustrations of the light and the salt in the Sermon on the Mount.

The prophecy these parables infold is most marvellous, spoken as it was in a time of so deep discouragement. There is true pathos in the thought of the grain of mustard seed, "the least of all seeds," and in the little word "hid," which comes in so significantly in the parable of the Leaven; and there is great strength of faith in the readiness of mind to recognise the hopeful thought of the inherent life and energy hidden in the tiny germ, and working all unseen in the little leaven which literally disappeared in the at first unaltered mass.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/teb/matthew-13.html
 

JAGG

New member
Dear Jagg,
All these supposed experts are part of the problem with the corruption of Christianity IMO
They have been blinded and they lead people into the pit.

Dear Lilstu,

You seem to delight in attacking the person that disagrees with you, either you attack them directly or you attack them subtly with implication. You try to DISCREDIT THEM instead of trying to discredit their arguments.

Moreover you practice ad hominem, that is, you insult the person by either directly calling them names or through clearly implied insults. This is another attempt to DISCREDIT THEM instead of attempting to discredit their arguments.

You made outrageous statements about some of the most respected Christian scholars that Christendom has produced:
For you to even suggest (much less proclaim as you did) that Christian scholars like Adam Clarke, Matthew Henry, Albert Barnes, and Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield, "have been blinded and they lead people into the pit" merely because they disagree with YOU, is totally outrageous, rude, discourteous, and glaringly unChristian.


You just accused some of the best Christian men that ever lived, of leading people into Hell, simply because they had the gall and nerve to actually disagree with YOU regarding the meaning of the word "leaven" in Mt. 13:33.

You are capable of better behavior than this kind of personal attacks on other Christians just because they do not agree with what YOU have come to believe.

You need to develop some respect for other Christians. It may come as a shock to you, but everybody within Christendom does not agree with YOU or with each other. There is a way to argue with other Christians who do not agree with YOU without INSULTING THEM or attempting to DISCREDIT THEM. How to do that? Try to discredit their arguments, do NOT try to DISCREDIT THEM. Its rude to do that.

How would you like it if somebody said the following about you?:

"All these supposed experts like Lilstu are part of the problem with the corruption of Christianity IMO. Lilstu has been blinded and he leads people into the pit."

You wouldn't like it at all. The person that said that would be trying to DISCREDIT LILSTU instead of trying to discredit Lilstu's arguments, and he would be treating you rudely and discourteously.
 

Lilstu

New member
I follow the Scriptures and not supposed experts.
I have shown you Scriptural evidence that leaven is bad and you prefer to believe supposed experts rather than what Scripture says.
Jesus' parables in Matthew 13 clearly reveal the the corruption of his church.
As for the supposed experts, they get paid to write books and they have to expect people to disagree without being "thin skinned" and taking offense if they are called out on their writings.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Leaven is used biblically as a symbol. It may symbolize good or bad. Leaven in waffles is good, spiritual leaven in our lives is bad.

We observe the Days of Unleavened Bread each year to symbolize spiritual housecleaning and the ingestion of Jesus' Spirit.
 

JAGG

New member
But look and see Jesus doubled down on his prophecy that Christianity would become corrupt.

I disagree that Jesus predicted that His Church would become corrupt. The Lord Jesus specifically said that He WOULD build His church, not "might" build it, but WOULD build it. Even clearer and more comforting, He then said that the Gates of Hell WOULD NOT PREVAIL against it --- which means that His Christian Church will NOT become corrupted. If His Christian Church becomes corrupted, then the Gates of Hell DID prevail against it, but the Lord Jesus specifically said that the Gates of Hell would NOT prevail against it.

Look at the previous verses in Matthew chapter 13.......
“The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; 32 and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.”

There isn't anything in the Parable of the Mustard Seed that compels us to reach the conclusion that the parable teaches a negative results about the future of the church. We can look at the Mustard Seed parable just as we look at the Parable of the Leaven --- that both these parables teach a future victorious Christian Church --- just as Jesus said "I WILL build my Church and the Gates of Hell will NOT prevail against it. That's a clear bold statement of future victory!
Thank the good Lord for that! Christendom is NOT the loser in the war against evil and Good, rather Christendom is the Victor. What do you think this means:
"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father

after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

*For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."


I Cor. 15:24-25

That sounds like Victory to me!

Doesn't that that sound like Victory to you?
 

Lilstu

New member
Leaven is used biblically as a symbol. It may symbolize good or bad. Leaven in waffles is good, spiritual leaven in our lives is bad.

We observe the Days of Unleavened Bread each year to symbolize spiritual housecleaning and the ingestion of Jesus' Spirit.

Good point ...spiritual housecleaning ....symbolic removal of sin.
 

Lilstu

New member
I disagree that Jesus predicted that His Church would become corrupt. The Lord Jesus specifically said that He WOULD build His church, not "might" build it, but WOULD build it. Even clearer and more comforting, He then said that the Gates of Hell WOULD NOT PREVAIL against it --- which means that His Christian Church will NOT become corrupted. If His Christian Church becomes corrupted, then the Gates of Hell DID prevail against it, but the Lord Jesus specifically said that the Gates of Hell would NOT prevail against it.



There isn't anything in the Parable of the Mustard Seed that compels us to reach the conclusion that the parable teaches a negative results about the future of the church. We can look at the Mustard Seed parable just as we look at the Parable of the Leaven --- that both these parables teach a future victorious Christian Church --- just as Jesus said "I WILL build my Church and the Gates of Hell will NOT prevail against it. That's a clear bold statement of future victory!
Thank the good Lord for that! Christendom is NOT the loser in the war against evil and Good, rather Christendom is the Victor. What do you think this means:


That sounds like Victory to me!

Doesn't that that sound like Victory to you?

The Little Flock...the elect...are not corrupted but the counterfeit church is corrupt.
 
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