Why the death penalty for some sexual sins.

[Turbo]

But the point is, even if you had the penalty and even if the criminal was "stopped," there'd still be people committing it elsewhere at any time, and even in secret.

But many of them would refrain, for fear of the punishment they would receive if they were to be caught.

Of course, there's a bunch of theories to this "deterrence" thing though -- take Sociology of Deviance class

Or better yet, give God the courtesy to at least find out what He says on the matter.

 

[Gerald]

Question: if adultery is declared a capital crime, how much effort is reasonable to expend in policing it?

Remember, you're only in trouble if you get caught, and most folks are not going to involve the authorities in something like adultery.

So, here's your problem: you know the adulterers are out there. Now, how do you go about catching them?

 

[Turbo]

Some commandments are just suggestions?

No. God was deadly serious when He told Israel that they should not do work on the Sabbath.

Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.

Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. Numbers 15:32-36​

 

[Turbo]

Question: if adultery is declared a capital crime, how much effort is reasonable to expend in policing it?

The same as with any other crime.

Remember, you're only in trouble if you get caught, and most folks are not going to involve the authorities in something like adultery.

Criminals try not to get caught? Get outta here!

So, here's your problem: you know the adulterers are out there. Now, how do you go about catching them?

Why do you think it would be different than catching any other criminals?

 

[Gerald]

The same as with any other crime.

I'm sure police would be lining up to volunteer for adultery stings...

Why do you think it would be different than catching any other criminals?

Because the police can only go after crimes that are reported; if it isn't reported, it didn't happen, as far as law enforcement is concerned.

If I suspect my neighbor is engaging in a bit of extra-cirricular activity, what incentive do I have to report him? He neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

And if I caught you snooping around on my property, trying to see if I was doing something naughty, and I blacked your eyes, broke your nose and split your lip, would you go running to the police claiming I had attacked you?

I thought not. :chuckle:

 

[julie21]

So...a non-believer many years ago commits adultery. They then get divorced from their spouse and marries the one they committed adultery with. This couple are non-believers for many years, but are trulyfaithful to each other. Some years later, they both become Christians and live their marriage according to the ways of the Lord. The one who committed adultery feels very sorry that they did what they did.
Should this once adulterer have suffered the death penalty for adultery? If so, then they would have had no chance to see the errors in their lives and become Christian, wanting to follow the Lord's way...or doesn't that matter?

 

[Turbo]

If I suspect my neighbor is engaging in a bit of extra-cirricular activity, what incentive do I have to report him?

What if instead of your neighbor, it were your wife?

 

[Agape4Robin]

So...a non-believer many years ago commits adultery. They then get divorced from their spouse and marries the one they committed adultery with. This couple are non-believers for many years, but are trulyfaithful to each other. Some years later, they both become Christians and live their marriage according to the ways of the Lord. The one who committed adultery feels very sorry that they did what they did.
Should this once adulterer have suffered the death penalty for adultery? If so, then they would have had no chance to see the errors in their lives and become Christian, wanting to follow the Lord's way...or doesn't that matter?

Sorry Julie.....I disagree here. Divorce alone is devastating at worst and emotionally wrenching even in the best of circumstances. If adultery causes a divorce, that is in effect the death of a marriage and if children are involved, it's the death of a family. Who pays for that....the one(s) left behind.
The statistics say that those who leave their spouse for another man/ woman, are twice as likely to commit adultery on them too. It's a fairy-tale ideal to believe that both adulterers would remain truly faithful to each other.
Changing of one's mind doesn't absolve one of the consequences of sin.

 

[Turbo]

So...a non-believer many years ago commits adultery. They then get divorced from their spouse and marries the one they committed adultery with. This couple are non-believers for many years, but are trulyfaithful to each other. Some years later, they both become Christians and live their marriage according to the ways of the Lord. The one who committed adultery feels very sorry that they did what they did.
Should this once adulterer have suffered the death penalty for adultery?

Assuming that adultery was a capital crime at the time, yes.

I could make a scenario in which an adulterous couple repented prior to their swift executions, recognizing that they were receiving their just punishment and turning to the Lord for salvation. But if they had lived in a country were adultery is tolerated, they would haved lived out their lives in rebellion against God.

I could make up another scenario in which they never committed adultery to begin with because of the Godly criminal justice system that was in place.

Wouldn't it be better to figure out what God says is best and advocate that?

If so, then they would have had no chance to see the errors in their lives and become Christian, wanting to follow the Lord's way...or doesn't that matter?

Was God unwise to say that adulterers should be executed?

It may be that we maximize the likelihood that they will repent by sentencing them to death. (One of the criminals who was executed with Christ repented and acknowledged that he was receiving his just punishment.)

And what's better, many of them wouldn't become adulterers to begin with.

 

[Turbo]

Julie, could you please clarify this statement?

I think you would find it wouldn't deter all...of course, those who had been killed, would not have the chance to do it more than once...

Are you only talking about for adultery here, or do you mean that capital punishment is an ineffective deterrent in general?

 

[julie21]

Sorry Julie.....I disagree here. Divorce alone is devastating at worst and emotionally wrenching even in the best of circumstances. If adultery causes a divorce, that is in effect the death of a marriage and if children are involved, it's the death of a family. Who pays for that....the one(s) left behind.
The statistics say that those who leave their spouse for another man/ woman, are twice as likely to commit adultery on them too. It's a fairy-tale ideal to believe that both adulterers would remain truly faithful to each other.

You of course are entitled to disagree, just as I am with your views.
I have apparently been living in a fairy-tale for the past 18 years then, according to your opinion...and who says that they can't come true? Neither my husband nor I have even contemplated...even in the really bad times of our marriage when we were not Christians...in committing adultery. And now that we are Christians, there is absolutely no way this will ever happen...but you are entitled to say that this is a load of rubbish, but how does anyone know the heart of another, except God? And it is He who has strengthened this 2nd marriage, through His being included in it and blessed it in many ways since coming to Him...if it's wrong, then why would He do that? There is no evidence of 'consequences that have come about from my actions.
You say that children of a divorce caused through adultery suffer...I can get my son to tell you how he feels, living with a father who does not drink alcohol to the point where it is dangerous to all concerned. And that he enjoys the relationship his father, mother and stepfather all enjoy, where his father is still a part of the new family unit, to the point that he goes on family holidays with us. Friends...not raging enemies.

Changing of one's mind doesn't absolve one of the consequences of sin.

Then isn't it funny how He has blessed our marriage in so may ways? What did Jesus do with the adultress woman?...do you think that after stopping those who were sinful in themselves stoning her, as the Law stated...that after He told her to " go and sin no more", that she then suffered from the consequences of her previous sin? I don't believe that she did...He forgave her, she went and sinned no more [ in my opinion] and lived a worth life.
Respectfully yours, even though we differ in opinion.

 

[julie21]

So Turbo...would you be without sin so that you could personally cast that first stone at me?

 

[julie21]

Julie, could you please clarify this statement?

I believe that you will never have a 100% effective deterrent for any capital crime...and if you personally want to include adultery, then go ahead. Society has those for whom the death penalty is nothing to them...they will do as they do. Look at Dahmer, and others of his ilk...they knew what was waiting for them.
The same logic is used by kids who race at idiotic speeds in cars, thay believe it will never happen to them. And sometimes, criminals are spurred on by the thrill of trying to get away with it, outsmarting the law. Doesn't adultery also cover women who leave their husbands and marry again or co-habitate with another male, even though their husband is the one who may have instigated the thing in the first place [ Honest question for verification please ]

 

[Turbo]

So Turbo...would you be without sin so that you could personally cast that first stone at me?

Was adultery a capital crime in your country when you cheated on your husband?

Julie, the Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus.

they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?" This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear. John 8:4-6​

The Romans were occupying Israel, and they did not allow the Jews to execute criminals (see John 18:31). The Pharisees wanted to provoke a conflict between Christ and the Roman authorities. They had absolutely no interest in justice. (Note that they said she was caught in the act, yet the man she was with wasn't also brought to Jesus.)

The Lord did not repeal the death penalty in John 8 any more than He did in 2 Samuel 12 when He forgave David and allowed him to live. (David, by the way, did not go on to oppose God's criminal justice system just because things happened to work out for him.)

God has delegated to governments the responsibility to execute capital criminals (see Romans 13:1-4). But of course God does not expect these governing authorities to be sinless; otherwise He never would have commanded the death penalty to begin with. In fact it is sinful and rebellious of governments not to execute those criminals whom God commands should be executed.

 

[julie21]

Turbo:

Was adultery a capital crime in your country when you cheated on your husband?

I anm sure you are well aware it isn't. My question to you is this... Do you advocate that it should be imposed as a crime worthy of the Death Penalty, and if it were, would you be capable of carrying out that sentence on me?
Julie

, the Pharisees were trying to trap Jesus

I am very aware of this point. And am also aware that the case stil remains that she had been caught in adultery, [ and that oddly enough the male was not brought along with her!] as mentioned by Jesus saying to her, "Go and sin no more". His grace was extended to her.

The Romans were occupying Israel, and they did not allow the Jews to execute criminals (see John 18:31)

I was always led to believe that it was the Jews who claimed that they were not allowed to take a life, according to the Law of Moses? As in ...

John 18:31 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
31Then said Pilate unto them, Take ye him, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death:

Pilate gave them the option of doing what they wanted to Jesus according to their Law, not because of Roman Law?

 

[Crow]

I was always led to believe that it was the Jews who claimed that they were not allowed to take a life, according to the Law of Moses?

Julie, you are misunderstanding the historical context. At the time of the crucifixion, the Jews were under Roman rule, and Rome did not give them the authority to execute criminals. The Jews, prior to Roman rule, did execute criminals. There were capital sentences prescribed for certain crimes.

 

[Turbo]

I believe that you will never have a 100% effective deterrent for any capital crime...

I agree. :doh: I misread/misunderstood what you said before. I thought you were saying "I think you would find it wouldn't deter [at] all..." Sorry about that.

Do you agree that although it would not deter 100%, a government that swiftly and consistently executes murderers will have a considerably lower murder rate than one that doesn't, assuming all else equal?

Society has those for whom the death penalty is nothing to them...they will do as they do. Look at Dahmer, and others of his ilk...they knew what was waiting for them.

Dahmer was not sentenced to death.

The same logic is used by kids who race at idiotic speeds in cars, thay believe it will never happen to them. And sometimes, criminals are spurred on by the thrill of trying to get away with it, outsmarting the law.

But that's not true of people in general, or even criminals in general. Most criminals are deterred by the threat of certain death. (That's why mobsters seldomly double-cross their bosses.)

Doesn't adultery also cover women who leave their husbands and marry again or co-habitate with another male, even though their husband is the one who may have instigated the thing in the first place [ Honest question for verification please ]

In that case, wouldn't it be the husband who left the wife?

No, a woman who is abandoned/divorced by her husband is no longer legally bound to him.

 

[Delmar]

I believe that you will never have a 100% effective deterrent for any capital crime...and if you personally want to include adultery, then go ahead. Society has those for whom the death penalty is nothing to them...they will do as they do. Look at Dahmer, and others of his ilk...they knew what was waiting for them.
The same logic is used by kids who race at idiotic speeds in cars, thay believe it will never happen to them. And sometimes, criminals are spurred on by the thrill of trying to get away with it, outsmarting the law. Doesn't adultery also cover women who leave their husbands and marry again or co-habitate with another male, even though their husband is the one who may have instigated the thing in the first place [ Honest question for verification please ]

There will,of coarse, never be a 100% effective deterrent for any crime or sin, but think for a minute how much differently you and the rest of society would view adultery if from the time you were born and long before it had been a capital crime. Think of the social stigma against it. Think what the world would be like if not 100% of people, but at least most people viewed adultery to be as serious a crime as murder. Don't you think that would be a fairly darn effective deterent.

 

[Delmar]

You of course are entitled to disagree, just as I am with your views.
I have apparently been living in a fairy-tale for the past 18 years then, according to your opinion...and who says that they can't come true? Neither my husband nor I have even contemplated...even in the really bad times of our marriage when we were not Christians...in committing adultery. And now that we are Christians, there is absolutely no way this will ever happen...but you are entitled to say that this is a load of rubbish, but how does anyone know the heart of another, except God? And it is He who has strengthened this 2nd marriage, through His being included in it and blessed it in many ways since coming to Him...if it's wrong, then why would He do that? There is no evidence of 'consequences that have come about from my actions.
You say that children of a divorce caused through adultery suffer...I can get my son to tell you how he feels, living with a father who does not drink alcohol to the point where it is dangerous to all concerned. And that he enjoys the relationship his father, mother and stepfather all enjoy, where his father is still a part of the new family unit, to the point that he goes on family holidays with us. Friends...not raging enemies.


Then isn't it funny how He has blessed our marriage in so may ways? What did Jesus do with the adultress woman?...do you think that after stopping those who were sinful in themselves stoning her, as the Law stated...that after He told her to " go and sin no more", that she then suffered from the consequences of her previous sin? I don't believe that she did...He forgave her, she went and sinned no more [ in my opinion] and lived a worth life.
Respectfully yours, even though we differ in opinion.

As far as criminal law goes, it should be what God has comanded! As far as your current marraige is concerned under current law... Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Being forced to marry is sufficient punishment.

OK... I admit it.... I laughed when I read that.