ECT WHY ONLT 3 GIFTS CEASE ??
- Thread starter DAN P
- Start date
Hi and you then believe that 1 Cor 13:8 is for NOW !!
Can you explain Mark 16:15:-18 was written to the Body of Christ ??
If you are having a problem reading and understanding Eph 4:11 , I will spell it out for especially if you explain how Paul was saved ??
In one post I gave the answer on his salvation and also the answer to 12 IN and 12 OUT and how one could be " in Christ BEFORE Paul in Rom 16:7 !!
Are you going to answer OR CUT and RUN ??
Dan p
All that is, is just your need for your soapbox.
At what point do you wake up and realize this nonsense of yours?
Acts 9 is NOT the issue for you.
Your need to lord your notion that you are right; is.
Yours is religion.
You are too blind to see this.
Were you a Baptist, or a Jehovah's Witness, or a Muslim or a former heavy smoker or alcoholic; or whatever other supposed liberation from a thing you think you have; you'd carry on just as you do as to Acts 9 Dispensationalism :chuckle:
How many MADs does it have to take to have to point this out to you?
Hi and you will never see what Paul is talking about in what the Holy Spirit had Paul write and it is true I was a So Baptist , Church of Christ , and Nazarene , but I grew up , have you ??
Never have smoked or taken one drink , how about that as My Dad set the example and I am losing my eye sight , what is your excuse ??
I am not here to be popular with anyone nor to stroke anyone !!
You sound like a JEJUNE to me !!
dan p
Lol
musterion
Well-known member
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me (a) how to know if you've been given the GIFT of pastor/teacher, and (b) how to discern if others who claim to have the GIFT, actually have it.
Everyone who pastors or presumes to teach claims to have that gift...but very few have the sound doctrine that (presumably) would be the obvious first indicator that that he has it.
Even among those who are generally sound in their teaching, there's none who are perfect.
So somebody explain it. If that gift is active today,
1. Name someone who you know God has given it to.
2. Tell us how you know God gave it to them.
Everyone who pastors or presumes to teach claims to have that gift...but very few have the sound doctrine that (presumably) would be the obvious first indicator that that he has it.
Even among those who are generally sound in their teaching, there's none who are perfect.
So somebody explain it. If that gift is active today,
1. Name someone who you know God has given it to.
2. Tell us how you know God gave it to them.
In my understanding; that someone's preaching is sound is no evidence of the so callled gift either.
As in all fields in life; some people are just born with a higher curiosity about things than others - a higher curiosity about how things work - that gradually results in a higher skill at sorting things out better than others.
That is in Adam.
The gifts in Scripture were not like that; they were automatic abilities.
Their failing and vanishing away both referring to, and resulting in, their absence right off.
As in all fields in life; some people are just born with a higher curiosity about things than others - a higher curiosity about how things work - that gradually results in a higher skill at sorting things out better than others.
That is in Adam.
The gifts in Scripture were not like that; they were automatic abilities.
Their failing and vanishing away both referring to, and resulting in, their absence right off.
Hi and as Paul to Timothy , THAT is why we havs colleges to teach men !!
But as Paul said to Timothy to teach faithful men who can teach other men in 2 Tim 2L2 !!
Never ;pick a NOVICE !!
Teach men who meet the qualifications of The Gospel of the Grace of God and as Paul says in 1 Cor 1 , One Plants and one Waters BUT gives the Increase as it is God that can save man !!
One gift is Music is also mentioned in Eph 5:19 !!
I firmly believe that if God calls all to have a gift and God places you where you will do the most good !!
Another thing is that it is God who places all in your place in the Body and some believers bring HONOR and others bring DISHONOR !!
There is a lot more , short answer !!
dan p
Hi and as a kid my parents were Pentecostal , but I grew up !!
Now I am the Dispensational DISPENSATIONALIST and I can prove it !!
dan p
In some areas; obviously - but you are still holding on to Pentecostal notions of gifts and or giftings.
That only reveals you are lacking in a much more well rounded understanding of our completeness in Christ.
But you have often shown that to be the case.
Time to go on to the perfection of that which is perfect; brother.
I say that in the spirit of...
Eph. 4:16
Relax, brother. No need to get all in a fuss just because you and I don't look at, and therefore do not see these things, from the same perspective.
If you and I will focus on who we are in Christ; we will each not need to lord our understanding on one another.
We won't need to insist that we right; and or how dare another attempt to correct us.
We both won't need that because we both will be focused on the fact that Christ alone is ever the only issue.
To His glory; not to our need for ours over another.
It is a failure in this that every so often results in one more split between "grace" people.
This gospel of the grace of God we assert is THEE gospel for today merely one more "reed shaking in the wind" if all we do is talk the talk, not walk the talk, anytime we allow what each our own nonsense wants to once more Jerry Springer - "this grace wherein we stand" becomes one more instance of "disgrace wherein we actually stand."
It is high time you put away this need of yours to be right; that you might actually grow further in your understanding of some things.
For I do NOT mind ANYONE'S correction - including yours - when I believe they actually know what they are talking about.
That out of the way - again - and until Christ be formed in you such that you stop making yourself the issue...
Ephesians 4 is a companion to Romans 12; and to 1 Cor. 12-14; and so on...
At the time that Paul penned Ephesians 4, he was still laying out aspects of the Mystery through his "prophetic writings."
He had not yet laid out the full revelation of the Mystery.
In other words "that which is perfect" - the full knowledge of the Mystery had not yet "come.."
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
When that which is perfect - the full revelation of the Mystery through Paul's "prophetic writings" was "come," or had reached its' full revelation in written form; then it's knowing in part would be no more - they would each have full access to it, in written form.
The result being that what would remain would be faith; hope; and charity - which had been one chief goal of the Mystery to begin with...
1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
See that - our work out of our faith in our Lord...our labour out of our love, or charity in our Lord...and our patience out of that hope that God has made our reality...in our Lord...
Can we focus on that for once?
Thank you.
DavidK
New member
This may be a bit round-about, so please bear with me. I have just begun studying Church leadership as depicted in scripture, so my understanding is still in formation.
The word pastor is the same translated "shepherd" and "feed". The words bishop, elder, and pastor seem to be used interchangeably. We have some pretty specific guidelines as the characteristics of a pastor in 1 Timothy largely revolving around maturity in the fruit of the Spirit and free from flagrant sin. They are called to feed, minister to, guide, and serve the flock.
From this, it seems that any mature (in faith, not just physical age), male believer can be recognized as a pastor. But I would expect a gifting toward being a pastor would be a special grace for not the requirements, but the responsibilities of the pastor. Someone who shows ability and finds deep joy in caring and shepherding the members of the flock.
In these times, we seem to use preacher and pastor interchangeably, but the Bible does not. I'd expect all preachers are elders (pastors), but not all elders (pastors) are preachers. I know a pastor who has a gift for preaching the gospel in a way that brings people to repentance and calls them to a passion to pursue God. In person, however, he has difficulty in guiding people in a way that does not bring offense. He's a pretty terrible listener. I'd say, while he meets the qualifications to be a pastor (elder) of the Church, he does not exhibit a gifting in it.
I know another pastor who exhibits great grace in comforting the grieving and troubled, mediating disputes between brethren, and, without compromising truth, gently calling people to greater purity and love. I would say he has a gift of pastoring.
Short answer, the leadership gifts are evident by how fluidly they operate through any given person.
DavidK
New member
I'm reading that you are making a distinction between a person who grows in ability and a gift, in that a gift has a supernatural suddenness about it. A person who is disposed toward pastoring or preaching would be different than someone who is not, but suddenly is granted ability by God. Is that right?
One hole in your argument, David K, is that the world is also full of some very gracious people who are lost.
One of my best friends: a Christ rejecting Jew; is like that.
Another one: a Muslim; is also a guy who's great grace in Adam many people speak highly of him for.
I know people with the foulest of language as their everyday vocabulary; who are some of the most giving people one could ever hope to meet.
I know some one else who was one heck of a gracious individual, way before he was saved.
His parents were lost. His sister was a pill, and his brother was a bit to bear, lol.
And none of them knew the Lord.
Later, when he trusted the Lord; he began to apply this gift (that he'd had in Adam, back when he was lost), to his new life in Christ.
I'd run around with him here and there and find people would every so often remark "he is so gracious because he is a Christian."
I knew that, as with my other two great friends; such was not the case with him either.
That he had always been this one heck of a sweetheart of a human being.
What that is, is that his having already been a very gracious individual to begin with - even more so when it comes to expressing his gratitude whenever some one does something for him - he began doing just that as unto the Lord; out of his great gratitude unto the Lord.
He was merely exercising his will as he had always done...
In this; the Apostle Paul's words come to mind...
1 Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
See that - the guy is desiring said office.
Obviously; out of gratitude on his part.
The word desire is often the same word as lust - the guy is so grateful he cannot but lust after, or desire, to get in a position where he might better serve the Lord in a greater capacity.
In this case; in a good work.
That is, in a work unto the Lord, in his particular case; as a bishop.
The Apostle Paul was the same way.
He had so been gripped by Christ's response to his rebellion that he could not help but be compelled to serve Him with every fiber of His being.
2 Corinthians 5:13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
This is how Mid-Acts looks at these things (or ought to)...
Though we certainly do not claim a monoploy on them; as I have just shown; in the walking, talking, living testimony of the above believer...back when he was just a new Believer, in Christ.
One of my best friends: a Christ rejecting Jew; is like that.
Another one: a Muslim; is also a guy who's great grace in Adam many people speak highly of him for.
I know people with the foulest of language as their everyday vocabulary; who are some of the most giving people one could ever hope to meet.
I know some one else who was one heck of a gracious individual, way before he was saved.
His parents were lost. His sister was a pill, and his brother was a bit to bear, lol.
And none of them knew the Lord.
Later, when he trusted the Lord; he began to apply this gift (that he'd had in Adam, back when he was lost), to his new life in Christ.
I'd run around with him here and there and find people would every so often remark "he is so gracious because he is a Christian."
I knew that, as with my other two great friends; such was not the case with him either.
That he had always been this one heck of a sweetheart of a human being.
What that is, is that his having already been a very gracious individual to begin with - even more so when it comes to expressing his gratitude whenever some one does something for him - he began doing just that as unto the Lord; out of his great gratitude unto the Lord.
He was merely exercising his will as he had always done...
In this; the Apostle Paul's words come to mind...
1 Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
See that - the guy is desiring said office.
Obviously; out of gratitude on his part.
The word desire is often the same word as lust - the guy is so grateful he cannot but lust after, or desire, to get in a position where he might better serve the Lord in a greater capacity.
In this case; in a good work.
That is, in a work unto the Lord, in his particular case; as a bishop.
The Apostle Paul was the same way.
He had so been gripped by Christ's response to his rebellion that he could not help but be compelled to serve Him with every fiber of His being.
2 Corinthians 5:13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
This is how Mid-Acts looks at these things (or ought to)...
Though we certainly do not claim a monoploy on them; as I have just shown; in the walking, talking, living testimony of the above believer...back when he was just a new Believer, in Christ.
musterion
Well-known member
Hello. I draw a very clear distinction when it comes to use the word gift. I don't mean it in terms of an ability, talent or skill someone may or may not naturally have. That's neither here nor there in light of the qualifications Paul set down.
In this context I mean only the literal supernatural gift that God gave, according to Paul, for the establishment of the Church. That is the gift that I want to see evidence of from all who claim it is still in force today, if not personally received it.
DavidK
New member
I'm not sure that's a hole. All good things are from Him, so any gifts the lost have have their source in Him. The Lord rains on both the just and unjust. The unjust may use those gifts to degenerate purpose, however.
One could also argue that the enemy can counterfeit signs and wonders. Can he give counterfeit gifts? An orator able to stir great evil in the hearts of a crowd would be a counterfeit of preaching, say.