Why is Bob proud about being homophobic?

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aikido7

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Originally posted by Jefferson
Not in my case.
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You said you were sarcastic because you felt that I was. If you weren't angry, there was no need to be sarcastic.
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I consider myself to be both a fundamentalist and a Christian hedonist
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Although it's a fairly modern idea, it is certainly your right to be a fundamentalist and a Christian hedonist. I just think that anyone--fundamentalist or hedonist--who advocates taking Leviticus literally is at best misguided and at worst, clearly insane. If we still lived in an ancient tribal and nomadic patriarchy, you would be right on though.
 

Jefferson

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Originally posted by Nova
That's really horrible. :( I am all for people's freedom to disagree with and disapprove of homosexuality, and openly lobby against things like homosexual marriage, but the death penalty for gays is simply ridiculous.
Was Paul being ridiculous in I Tim. 1:8-10?
 

karstkid

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Aroto:

Quote:
"Jesus is trying to prove a very valuable point here, often times the heart leads us to sin, it is truly our actions though that condemn us. We need to continue to work on your thoughts which for every man are evil and wicked, but we are judged on our actions, with that too I am exctremely grateful for the grace that God has given me. I can honestly say that I have done nothing punishable by death. You?"

If you were to read a porno magazine, or watch a porno video, or look at porno sites on the internet, those are not actions? Jesus said even the lustful thought is sin. Jesus was saying that lust, hate, anger, envy etc. all start in the mind and the heart. Lust for example starts in the mind. Maybe it doesn't materialize into one actually seducing a beautiful woman, but it is still sin. If you were not a believer and you died with lustful thoughts in your mind just moments before you died, you would go to hell. Jesus was saying that one does not have to commit a physical act to guilty of sin.
 

AROTO

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karstkid:

Quote:
If you were to read a porno magazine, or watch a porno video, or look at porno sites on the internet, those are not actions? Jesus said even the lustful thought is sin. Jesus was saying that lust, hate, anger, envy etc. all start in the mind and the heart. Lust for example starts in the mind. Maybe it doesn't materialize into one actually seducing a beautiful woman, but it is still sin. If you were not a believer and you died with lustful thoughts in your mind just moments before you died, you would go to hell. Jesus was saying that one does not have to commit a physical act to guilty of sin.

I think we actually agree on the fact that lust is wrong and sinful, I am just trying to point out the fact is I believe the act of adultry should be punishable by death. Porno should be illegal and there should be strong punishment as well.

It was said earlier in this post:
Matthew 5:27-28 says:
"27“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; 28but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

My comments in response to this are to try and show the difference between our thoughts and our actions. God will most certainly judge our thoughts, Here on earth though society needs to show the judgement of our actions ie laws etc. Homosexuality, adultry, abortion, murder, rape and so on should all have very swift death penaltys.:thumb:
 
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aikido7

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Controversies over sexual ethics have pervaded the Western world for a long time, and the Bible has been an important factor in those controversies. Some readers invoke their interpretation of its authority, others attack it as a bad influence. Some believers say it lays down a clear-cut sexual ethic, while others hear many messages not always in agreement with each other.

I hope that you have all learned that interpretators of Scripture do not all agree with each other and, whoever may "ultimately" be right, the situation calls for a fresh and careful reading of the texts.

As Christians, all of us have the mandate to go to those who qualify as experts and scholars for our information and evaluation.

Scholars are those who have acquired the necessary linguistic and methodological skills, who are thoroughly acquainted with the ancient texts and archeological data, who undertake and draw their own conclusions in relation to an established body of knowledge and critical theory, and who put their own work out in public for criticism and peer review.

The best experts put truth above personal preference or conviction.

We should follow factual truth--as much as we can determine what that is-- wherever it leads. We may not like where it leads, but we can do no less.

History and evidence DO inform faith.
 

One Eyed Jack

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Originally posted by aikido7
As Christians, all of us have the mandate to go to those who qualify as experts and scholars for our information and evaluation.

No we don't. Most of these "experts and scholars" are false teachers.
 

aikido7

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Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
No we don't. Most of these "experts and scholars" are false teachers.

Labeling an expert or scholar a "false teacher" guarentees your eyes and ears will be shut to any new shaft of God's light in a dark room. Even Jimmy Swaggart preached God's word and helped many.

Many turn away, as did the disciples, out of fear. Knowledge and the intellect are seen as stumbling blocks instead of as ways to see, define and scale those blocks.

From nameless dread to well-defined terrors, we often cringe before life and make decisions--large and small--on the basis of fear. How else could fundamentalism flourish? How else could politicians manipulate us the way they do? Why else would parents stifle their children? Or lovers turn against each other?

Why else would we wage war, descend into bigotry, scapegoat the weak and different, punish the victim and make God small?
 

.Ant

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Hmmm, yet another off-topic discussion...

Hmmm, yet another off-topic discussion...

Originally posted by Jefferson
Originally posted by .Ant
I don't have a problem with the death penalty as such, but I do have a problem with the combination of the death penalty and our legal system.

Please elaborate.
The only thing I have against the death penalty is that I don't think our legal system (that includes, I think, all western legal systems and more) is reliable enough to justify the death penalty. It's not that the death penalty is unjust, but that the legal system is unjust. I don't think adding the ultimate penalty to an unjust system is a good idea.

I probably don't need to tell you some major problems with the legal system. Just look at the proportion of death-row inmates who have been declared not-guilty. Not to mention the fact that under our legal system, the rich are far less likely to go to prison, due to them having the means to hire better lawyers.

Not that the system is basically unjust - it's not, it seems to be the best we have, it just has a lot of problems.

Modern governments (well, almost all of them, at least) are not in the same position as ancient Israel, God's chosen nation...
 

Jefferson

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Originally posted by karstkid
In Leviticus chapter 20 it condemns homosexuality to death. But, it also condemns to death adultery, bestiality, human sacrifice, incest, and occult involvement. I do not hear you preaching the death penalty for these sinful practices. Not committing adultery is one of the ten commandments as well. Show me your justification.
Our laws today are not supposed to symbolically reflect a relationship between God and His chosen people in a theocracy because there are no chosen people during this dispensation. However, God's moral standards never change. Therefore it is (relatively) easy to see which Old Testament laws are applicable today and which ones are not. An example of this is found in I Timothy 1:8-10:

"But we know that the law is good if a man uses it lawfully,
knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous one, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and anything else that is contrary to sound doctrine,
"

Notice Paul says the Old Testament law "is" for this and that kind of person . . . not "was."

Notice also, however, that Paul does not advocate every OT law. He says the law must only be used "lawfully" and it must not be "contrary to sound doctrine." Israel's symbolic laws were for her only. Forcing them on a society today would be using the law unlawfully and contrary to sound doctrine.

Therefore, I am in favor of all of the Biblical Laws in your list being applied today except for occult involvement based on the reasons I just gave. Also incest is one I'm actually not sure of. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I'll look in to it.
 
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Jefferson

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Originally posted by aikido7
Originally posted by Jefferson
Not in my case.
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You said you were sarcastic because you felt that I was. If you weren't angry, there was no need to be sarcastic.
I agree. There was no "need." It was just simply fun. Can't wait for another opportunity. I like to laugh.

Although it's a fairly modern idea, it is certainly your right to be a fundamentalist and a Christian hedonist. I just think that anyone--fundamentalist or hedonist--who advocates taking Leviticus literally is at best misguided and at worst, clearly insane. If we still lived in an ancient tribal and nomadic patriarchy, you would be right on though.
Do you think Paul was "misguided" and "insane" for advocating Leviticus in I Timothy 1:8-10?
 

One Eyed Jack

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Originally posted by aikido7
Labeling an expert or scholar a "false teacher" guarentees your eyes and ears will be shut to any new shaft of God's light in a dark room.

Unless, of course, they really are false teachers, in which case they have no light to shine anyway.
 

AROTO

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Re: Hmmm, yet another off-topic discussion...

Re: Hmmm, yet another off-topic discussion...

Originally posted by .Ant
Please elaborate.
The only thing I have against the death penalty is that I don't think our legal system (that includes, I think, all western legal systems and more) is reliable enough to justify the death penalty. It's not that the death penalty is unjust, but that the legal system is unjust. I don't think adding the ultimate penalty to an unjust system is a good idea.

I probably don't need to tell you some major problems with the legal system. Just look at the proportion of death-row inmates who have been declared not-guilty. Not to mention the fact that under our legal system, the rich are far less likely to go to prison, due to them having the means to hire better lawyers.

[/QUOTE]

I agree with your thoughts that our legal system is not very good:kookoo: Wealthy individuals definatley have more advantages in the United States court systems than that of the average person. Most death row inmates that have thier sentences overturned get the decision reversed due to a technicality, not because of their innocense:nono: There are so many examples of "known" killers that are still on death row and will most likely die of old age before their execution can be carried out. I advocate a very swift death penalty in all cases of murder, but I too see the problem being raised by our unfair justice system. A question I would ask, is it better to let hundreds of killers live or for one innocent person to be put to death.:think:

I think it is worse to let the hundreds of killers live!:down:
 

aikido7

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The human heart rules. Talk and dogma cannot match what God has put in place.

Cheney's daughter and Phyllis Schafly's son are gay. Senator Pete Dominichi's daughter is mentally ill.

Since Cheyney and Schafly's children "came out," they no longer rant against the "homosexual agenda." Since Dominichi's daughter had her breakdown, the senator has been in the forfront of working for funding and programs to help the mentally ill.

Love and understanding trump ignorant rants. Jesus said nothing about homosexuality because he was enlarging the human family beyond the ancient tribal, ethnic and purity restrictions.

Love rules.
 

Target

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After observing this forum I have come to several conclusions. One. This forum is supported by close friends and allies of Bob Enyart. Two. All of his cohorts believe in his book “The Plot” which is nothing more than an attempt to explain the convoluted theology and eschatology of a belief system known as Ultradispensationalism. Bob Enyart is an Ultradispensationalist. Ultradispensationalism has numerous aberrant beliefs. It is not in the mainstream of Evangelical Christianity. Three. Bob’s homophobia is part and parcel of his schizophrenic belief system. Many of the Ultradispensationalist churches have the word “Grace” in their name. But, with the hardness of heart of Bob and his ilk shows toward some, one would hardly believe it. Bob and his cohorts would be quick to quote this verse.

“but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.”” 1 Peter 1:15-16

We should live holy lives. But, as I see it Bob and his comrades need this verse.

“He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.” 1 John 4:8

But Bob’s cohorts will quote some verse (probably OT) to counteract the impact and importance of 1 John 4:8.

Now let’s set the record straight. Homosexuality is sin. Adultery is sin. Murder is sin. Rape is sin. Fornication is sin. Lying is sin. Using the Lord’s name in vain is sin. Dishonoring your parents is sin. Lust is sin. Saying to someone “you fool” is a sin. Etc. etc.etc. You probably are getting the picture. A fitting verse is this one.

“For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” James 2:10

The following verse also applies to Bob and company’s extreme judgementalism.

“For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.” James 2:13

Jesus had mercy and compassion on the woman caught in adultery. Yet, He said “Go and sin no more.”

With the attitude of Bob and his buddies they may have ignored Jesus and stoned her. That is the attitude he has toward homosexuals.

Jesus truly did love the sinner but hated the sin.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.” John 3:16-17

But, Bob and friends might say. “A repentant homosexual could come to Christ. But, the vast majority of them are unrepentant” True enough. But, let’s look at some numbers. The percentages of homosexuals in the USA are 1% to 1.5%. Out of 287 million Americans that’s only 2.8 million or so homosexuals. That leaves over 284 million non-homosexual Americans. Out of 284 million non-homosexual Americans there are many scores of millions that would be defiant to God and unrepentant. Yet, you make it as though the homosexuals are the only ones that are unrepentant and defiant. The truth is that the more one get into sin, any sin, the more that sin has a grip on us. Therefore sin will make us more defiant and unrepentant to God.

Ted Turner is not homosexual. Yet, he is unrepentant and hates Christianity. In the 5th century AD St. Patrick tried to evangelize the Irish chief who enslaved him. Before the chieftain threw himself in the fire he said that ‘I’d rather die a pagan than a Christian.’ His sin was devotion to the occult.

One other thing, condemnation of homosexuals will not bring them to the Lord. Yes they need to hear a message of repentance but more than anything they really need to hear the Gospel message of hope and the love of Jesus. Most people I know became Christians when they heard about the love of God than the wrath of God. St. John says “We love because He first loved us.”

Finally, I certainly hope that Bob is not tangled up with that horrible group known for their motto “God hates fags”. If he is, then I pray that Bob’s whole ministry closes down. That group from some Baptist church in Topeka Kansas is so evil in what they do and say I can truly say that it is not from God but from the Devil.

:BRAVO:
 
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