Thats specific to the jewish theocracy. Id like everything to be a theocracy to God and only follow His edicts, you?
Other than that, see the relevant verse i already posted about giving not being compulsory by the church.
Why i'm a socialist...
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Thats specific to the jewish theocracy. Id like everything to be a theocracy to God and only follow His edicts, you?
Other than that, see the relevant verse i already posted about giving not being compulsory by the church.
baloney. it is easy to say you are a socialist when you are young and poor. Those of the top 10% most wealthy pay more than 60% of all taxes. What do you want to do, reward the least able and usually, most lazy while punishing the most hard working, most willing to say in school, most ambitious and the most likely to save money for their own retirement?
You tell 'em, Top Kat!
That's a nice way to put starvation and chaos.
Your advice to read your Bible is good advice for you to take. Show me the governmental penalties for not paying the tithes. You know, like a government punishes non-payment of taxes. I'll tell you what you will find. Nothing..... Also show me where ancient Israel's original government, the one God set up, had any part in controlling their economy such as setting prices, wages, etc.... All you will find is that the priests were to set the percentage to be paid back if a debtor or the debtor's relative had to pay to redeem the property or person/s sold to the creditor, and that percentage was based upon time left in the contract negotiated strictly between the debtor and the creditor. No other involvement at all. The priest was involved only to make sure both creditor and debtor lived up to the terms of they had negotiated between them.
This is straight out of the Bible. I posted it in response to this post
So God encourages us to fix the unfair world. Labeling it as a "Jewish Theocracy" thing won't make that go away.
So your problem is not with taxes- but only with enforcement?
Regarding the Biblical commandments: There is not a lot of detail in there. So there isn't anything about how it was enforced. You think these rules were just on paper, and nobody actually did these things?
The Bible foresees a capitalistic system, but one with limitations to protect the poor and weak. The most obvious ones are the laws of the Sabbatical, in which debts were forgiven, and the Jubilee , when land went back to it's original owner.
I'm not sure where you got that part about the priests setting interest rates- can you give me the verses for that? Thanks.
Chair
RealityJerk
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Over on this side of the pond I would not choose to describe myself a socialist,( maybe a centerist dad.) but within the political spectrum of TOL I definitely fulfil that role.
I enjoyed reading the definition of conservatism thread that going on and thought we need a rival one for us leftists;
Random Reasons why i'm on the left;
- I believe that the strong have a responsibility to protect and nurture the weak
- I believe that i am to a degree my brothers keeper
- I believe that somethings we do better corporately than individually
- If we are going to have vaguely equal opportunity, we need to attempt equal access to good quality healthcare and education
- I believe its wrong to do hoard wealth and do nothing whilst children live poverty
- I believe that is situations government is more effective than the private sector
- Markets are good at creating wealth but bad at spreading it fairly
- To harness the positive forces of the market we need to limits its excesses
- Unrestricted markets are just as exploitative and evil as unaccountable governments
- God ordains government for our benefit (Romans 12)
- There are things more important in the world than my personal freedoms
- I believe all people are my equals and wish to treat them with due respect
I don't by any stretch expect you all to agree with me.
I definitely believe that certain sectors of our economy should be nationalized. Energy, natural resources (oil, ore mining, minerals..etc), medicine, education. We can have private hospitals and schools, but there should always be a government alternative. When I was in the military, I received the best healthcare in the world. Our military hospitals on base are excellent. The medical staff conducts its work with the utmost care and professionalism. I hear quite a bit of talk about the VA not being what it should be, not providing good healthcare. I've never had a problem at the VA. I personally love the VA. The times that I've gone there, I've been treated well. I have no complaints.
I have a family member that's on medicaid and she's being taken care of well, she has no complaints. Medicaid has actually saved her life. That's a government run system. We have billions, even trillions of dollars, to fight all of these wars, engage in our "regime change projects" around the world, bailout bankers to the tune of trillions of dollars, but somehow we can't provide citizens with healthcare and an education? I'm not buying it. We spend more on the military yearly, than Europe, China, Russia, Australia, India, and 20 other countries combined. You can google it, our military budget is 800+ billion dollars. Almost a trillion a year. We spend over 100 billion yearly on the so called "Drug War"/Drug Prohibition. A racket. We spend tens of billions yearly subsidizing corporations like Monsanto, DuPont, Exxon Mobil..etc.
We have plenty of money, we just don't know how to budget and use what we have effectively. Too much waste.
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RealityJerk
New member
There are plenty of dictatorships in the world, that are capitalist or have free market economies. Socialist countries are forced to spend a large percentage of their resources on defense, as a result of certain vested interests that control certain governments, that constantly try to overthrow and destroy the socialist countries. Libya is a good example of what happens to successful socialist countries.
The bankers, Wall Street, demand full control of the markets, and don't allow nations to nationalize their economies, their resources. Many nations now in Latin America, like Ecuador, Bolivia, Nicaragua, are doing well with a socialist economy. Venezuela decided to nationalize its oil and sell it on the market, independently, without being under the control of American speculators, Wall Street, so it's paying the price, like all socialist countries that attempt to nationalize their natural resources. Nationalizing oil is a big no no. Especially if you want to sell it with a currency other than the dollar.
China has nationalized the most important sectors of its economy and allows its citizens to own businesses, in the area of food, clothing, electronics, automobile manufacturing, but not energy, real estate..etc. You can lease a property for 30 years, but the government, the people, own the land. All Real Estate is owned by the government/the people and the profits go back into national infrastructure. That's the benefit of nationalizing certain sectors of the economy. The profit doesn't end up in the hands of a few company share holders, it's re-invested into the company and most of it goes into creating jobs, building national infrastructure.
I believe the future is socialism or a hybrid of socialism. A combination of socialism and free markets.
The bankers, Wall Street, demand full control of the markets, and don't allow nations to nationalize their economies, their resources. Many nations now in Latin America, like Ecuador, Bolivia, Nicaragua, are doing well with a socialist economy. Venezuela decided to nationalize its oil and sell it on the market, independently, without being under the control of American speculators, Wall Street, so it's paying the price, like all socialist countries that attempt to nationalize their natural resources. Nationalizing oil is a big no no. Especially if you want to sell it with a currency other than the dollar.
China has nationalized the most important sectors of its economy and allows its citizens to own businesses, in the area of food, clothing, electronics, automobile manufacturing, but not energy, real estate..etc. You can lease a property for 30 years, but the government, the people, own the land. All Real Estate is owned by the government/the people and the profits go back into national infrastructure. That's the benefit of nationalizing certain sectors of the economy. The profit doesn't end up in the hands of a few company share holders, it's re-invested into the company and most of it goes into creating jobs, building national infrastructure.
I believe the future is socialism or a hybrid of socialism. A combination of socialism and free markets.
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RealityJerk
New member
Another thing I'd like to add. God isn't a Democrat or a Republican. He's a Monarchist. Absolute monarchy. He's the King of Kings, Lord of Lords. If he were the King of little kings or the Lord of little lords, that wouldn't be worth mentioning, right? Being The King of an ant hill, doesn't encourage much awe or fear, reverence, right? YHWH is THE KING OF KINGS. Kings that are powerful, are under His authority. Now that's impressive. This idea that government has to be democratic, is a lie of the devil, straight from the pit of hell. In a demonized world, democracy is demonic. God has nothing against so called "dictators"/kings, provided they are just and fair.
A righteous dictator, who loves and fears God, is more acceptable to God, than a godless charlatan politician, Democrat or Republican.
A righteous dictator, who loves and fears God, is more acceptable to God, than a godless charlatan politician, Democrat or Republican.
RealityJerk
New member
LOL! Amazing.
RealityJerk
New member
You wouldn't need to tax anyone, to the extent we do today, if the government/the people, owned the largest industries in the economy. Rather than the surplus/profit, going to the share-holders (Beachfront Mansions, Ferraris,Yachts, learjets, rolex..etc) of a company, the profit goes back into the company (wages,equipment..etc) and the state/infrastructure ( electricity, roads, bridges, public transit, medical, education..etc).
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Act 4:36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
Act 4:37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
When you are an actual born again/born from above believer, you naturally lean towards communalism. You want to be in the presence of the body of Christ, every single day. Sunday morning service and Wednesday night bible study, is often not enough. We want to be in fellowship with other born again new creations in Christ, every single day. We want church, every single day. Praise and worship, bible study, with our family, our brothers and sisters in Christ, daily. That's heaven on earth for the genuine disciple of Christ.
You don't measure success as the world measures it. The standard of success for a Christian, is different than it is in the world. Success is being filled with the Holy Spirit and walking every day in the Spirit, with Christ. It's bearing fruit for the Kingdom of God. It's preaching the gospel, and setting the captives free, in Jesus name. It's serving God. It's praise and worship, it's praying for the sick and seeing them healed. It's cultivating the gifts of the Spirit. It's not living in luxury and comfort when your brother and sister in Jesus is hungry, homeless, naked and suffering (In Syria and other parts of the world, Christians are being slaughtered and they're living in squalor, while we American Christians live in opulence, safety and comfort, often completely indifferent to what our brethren are experiencing abroad. We're to busy playing Xbox and watching HBO).
I doubt the holy angels are capitalizing on each other's needs. The angels live in the light together, as a close knit, holistic community. A heavenly community. They're communalists. They commune with each other, in a commune of love and holiness.
Act 2:43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Act 4:36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
Act 4:37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
When you are an actual born again/born from above believer, you naturally lean towards communalism. You want to be in the presence of the body of Christ, every single day. Sunday morning service and Wednesday night bible study, is often not enough. We want to be in fellowship with other born again new creations in Christ, every single day. We want church, every single day. Praise and worship, bible study, with our family, our brothers and sisters in Christ, daily. That's heaven on earth for the genuine disciple of Christ.
You don't measure success as the world measures it. The standard of success for a Christian, is different than it is in the world. Success is being filled with the Holy Spirit and walking every day in the Spirit, with Christ. It's bearing fruit for the Kingdom of God. It's preaching the gospel, and setting the captives free, in Jesus name. It's serving God. It's praise and worship, it's praying for the sick and seeing them healed. It's cultivating the gifts of the Spirit. It's not living in luxury and comfort when your brother and sister in Jesus is hungry, homeless, naked and suffering (In Syria and other parts of the world, Christians are being slaughtered and they're living in squalor, while we American Christians live in opulence, safety and comfort, often completely indifferent to what our brethren are experiencing abroad. We're to busy playing Xbox and watching HBO).
I doubt the holy angels are capitalizing on each other's needs. The angels live in the light together, as a close knit, holistic community. A heavenly community. They're communalists. They commune with each other, in a commune of love and holiness.
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Ah, no verses?
First, where did I say anything about interest rates?
Second, socialism is an economic system/theory in which government decides economic issues. It is diametrically opposed to capitalism. And, capitalism is not opposed to taking care of the poor. Thus, since God set up an economic system based upon strictly individual ownership and control of all means of production and capital, socialism had no part in that system. You mistake God's rules designed to reduce selfishness in the individual's heart as a government enforced system of taxation and a government-controlled economy. Nothing could be further from what God set up. It's true, God set up means of limiting the effects of poverty, but I defy you to show me where the Bible defines charity as taking money from your neighbor at the point of the government's gun, i.e. by force as in all forms of government taxation, and giving it to a third person. You will have to demonstrate from the laws given through Moses where that is the case. I can tell you that no such law existed.
The only rules for which God set up penalties for breaking the laws of Isreal were the laws concerning major crimes such as killing, theft, rape, etc.... And then those penalties were to be enforced by the people themselves. There was no prison system or jails. There was no judicial system as such either. The people enforced the laws and the individual community leaders were in charge of determining guilt according to the testimony of witnesses to the act. God set the punishments.
Things such as tithes and offerings, what you seem to equate with government taxation, were enforced by an individual's conscience. You will find no laws concerning the collection and enforcement of these things. And even those laws were designed to rely on the individual's conscience. They were deliberately vague for God was testing the heart of the individual for selfishness/greed with those laws.
here's the bit about interest rates:
But let's leave that aside for the moment.
The Bible does not promote a socialist agenda. I never said it did. But it does impose taxes to help the poor, and has laws for forgiving debts every seventh year, and property going back to its original owners every 50 years. You're pretending that these laws didn't involve any enforcement, since none is mentioned. It remains God's rules for how to run an economy, whether or not there was enforcement. You can't get away from that.
RealityJerk
New member
No verses or verses. I find the idea of priests "setting interest rates" as if they're working for the Federal Reserve, quite funny.
Made up, because I am an actual born again/born from above believer. He is risen! And I'm not a communist/socialist/Marxist.
RealityJerk
New member
In respect to Christianity, I didn't say anything about Marxism or socialism in the secular sense. There are aspects of Marxist ideology that are clearly contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ. But as far as communalism is concern, the believers in the wilderness after being redeemed from Egypt, lived communally in a large camp, where everybody depended on God and their fellow Israelites. In the school of prophets, described in the Old Testament, the prophets lived in community. And in the first church, led by the apostles of Christ, you see a communalist or "communist" arrangement. We see a pattern in the bible of the ideal community and it's not everyone living for themselves and gathering only once a week in a building on Sundays.
Where does what you quoted from me say anything about interest? You are reading that into it. You're also displaying your lack of knowledge of the OT.
You keep saying tithes and freewill offerings are taxes. They are not. Tithes are paid to God and/or the church. Taxes are demanded and paid by a government. Go read about the days of Solomon and Rehoboam. They demanded taxes to support their kingships/monarchial_governments. Taxes are government-enforced. Tithes and offerings are not. Tithes and offerings are paid from the sense of obligation that comes from the gratitude towards God that lives in the heart. Go back and read what God said about the offerings required to build the portable sanctuary built during the wandering in the wilderness.
Tithes are obligatory. As are many other commandments in the Bible. Even if no penalty is mentioned.
Are the festivals obligatory? There is no penalty listed for not celebrating Tabernacles, or the feast of weeks- so are they just "recommendations"? Just "Freewill"?
You are trying to massage the Bible to match your economic ideas.