Why I Am Pro-Choice

[The Horn]

I know you folks at TOL are going to hate this , but it's my opinion .
I am pro-choice . Not "pro-abortion ". No one is pro abortion .
I make no bones about it . I am pro-choice not because I like abortion , I don't , or because I want abortions to happen , which I don't , but because the alternative , government-ordered compulsory childbirth for pregnant women is always disastrous to society and never prevents
abortion .
There is nothing more futile than trying to stop abortion by making it illegal . It does not work , never has and never will .
Laws against murdering BORN people can be enforced . Laws against abortion fetuses cannot be enforced . No country has ever been able to do this or ever will .
More abortions happen in countries where it is illegal than where it is legal, and every year in these countries , thousands of desperately poor women die from botched illegal abortions ,leaving who knows how many children motherless . They die in agony .
Anti-choicers are never hosest enough to acknowledge the fact that abortion was very common in America before Roe V Wade , and the fact that who knows how many women died from illegal abortions, while women who could afford it arranged safe clandestine ones or went off to countries where it was legal .
How many of the countless illegal abortions in America before Roe were criminally prosecuted ? You can practically count them on your fingers . There was no way to enforce the law .
Newspapers never printed stories about women dying from botched illegal abortions . These were kept hushed up .
These awful conditions will return if our government ever makes abortion illegal again . Many,many poor women will die , while those whoc an afford it will easily go to Canada. Europe and elsewhere for safe ,legal ones .
Trying to stop abortion by making it illegal is like trying to stop a forest fire by poruing gasoline on it .
If we are going to do anythign about the problem of abprtion in America , we must strive, with the help of the government, to prevent as many unwanted pregnancies as possible . We must make sure that contraceptives are always easily available .
Our government must do more to help poor pregnant women - see to it that they get pre natal care , and that their children will not grow up in abject poverty, filth, hunger, malnutrition ,lack of medical care and lack of good education Ther eis no other way .
Why do countries in Europe such as those in Scandinavia , Germany, Switzerland, Austria, the Netherlands, Belgium etc have such low abortion rates ? The lowest in the world in fact .
Because there is little poverty there, contraceptives are easily available and children who ARE born do not grow up in poor housing , poverty , hunger and helpelessness .

 

[The Horn]

Oops. Should read "laws against abortiing fetuses ", not laws against abortion fetuses . My bad .

 

[drbrumley]

:sigh:

 

[Ktoyou]

"Why I Am Pro-Choice -"

Really would this not be a more interesting thread for you to post?

"Why I am attracted to forums where most members do not like me"

 

[The Horn]

DrBrumley , laws saying that by order of the state, "All pregnant women must give birth or else " are the ultimate form of statism .
. They are a violation of the rights of pregnant women .
Pro-choicers don't want to force any woman to have an abortion . This is HER decision . There can be no freedom at all if the government has the power to stick its nose into women's reproductive organs .

 

[Rusha]

Our government must do more to help poor pregnant women - see to it that they get pre natal care , and that their children will not grow up in abject poverty, filth, hunger, malnutrition ,lack of medical care and lack of good education Ther eis no other way .
Why do countries in Europe such as those in Scandinavia , Germany, Switzerland, Austria, the Netherlands, Belgium etc have such low abortion rates ? The lowest in the world in fact .
Because there is little poverty there, contraceptives are easily available and children who ARE born do not grow up in poor housing , poverty , hunger and helpelessness .

So, are you stating that if pregnant women were given medical assistance, food and monetary assistance, you would be against abortion?

 

[The Horn]

No. The choice must always be there . But if the US could greatly reduce poverty , women would not find themselves in situations which would cause them to have abortions .
If a woman's life were at stake, which sometimes happens , abortion must be legal .
Abortion should be safe,legal and rare . If you make it illegal , it becomes unsafe, illegal and COMMON .

 

[Ktoyou]

No. The choice must always be there . But if the US could greatly reduce poverty , women would not find themselves in situations which would cause them to have abortions .
If a woman's life were at stake, which sometimes happens , abortion must be legal .
Abortion should be safe,legal and rare . If you make it illegal , it becomes unsafe, illegal and COMMON .

A woman has to be responsible for her body. You seem to misunderstand what responsible means?

Your abortion-Prohibition nexus falls flat!

 

[Quetzal]

"Why I Am Pro-Choice -"

Really would this not be a more interesting thread for you to post?

"Why I am attracted to forums where most members do not like me"

Something tells me he could care less about the opinion of the members of this forum. Can't say I blame him.

 

[Ktoyou]

Something tells me he could care less about the opinion of the members of this forum. Can't say I blame him.

Then why is he here? Why are you here, since you think so little of us? I know, you both like to be pests. Wonderful...........

 

[Quetzal]

Then why is he here? Why are you here, since you think so little of us? I know, you both like to be pests. Wonderful...........

Entertainment.

 

[quip]

Then why is he here? Why are you here, since you think so little of us? I know, you both like to be pests. Wonderful...........

Why post on a forum that overwhelmingly agrees with you on controversial issues....are you that insecure?

One must put their ideas to the test, trial by fire, so to speak....what better place for a liberal to do this than ToL. :wave2:

(Plus...it's just so damned fun.)

 

[PureX]

There's a good argument to be made on either side of the issue. Which is why as a society, we have not been able to resolve this problem of aborting unwanted pregnancies in nearly 40 years. There are some aspects of the issue that most everyone agrees on, however. And we could start moving forward from there. Unfortunately, there are so many people responding irrationally and emotionally and with such animosity toward the "other side" that no progress has been made, at all.

 

[Stripe]

Abortion is murder.

 

[Rusha]

So, are you stating that if pregnant women were given medical assistance, food and monetary assistance, you would be against abortion?

No. The choice must always be there .

Then WHY do you keep bringing it up? Obviously your position is "Women must be allowed to intentionally kill their unborn babies ... just because they can."

But if the US could greatly reduce poverty , women would not find themselves in situations which would cause them to have abortions .

Poverty does not *cause* abortion. Selfishness and apathy causes abortion. For a MOTHER to kill her own child is beyond comprehension.

If a woman's life were at stake, which sometimes happens , abortion must be legal .

You always say this, and I have shown you the statistics that show a woman's life is rarely the reason women abort. You know this, so why not stick to the MAIN reason women utilize for abortion?

Abortion should be safe,legal and rare . If you make it illegal , it becomes unsafe, illegal and COMMON .

WHY rare? Saying abortion should be rare indicates that you don't believe it's really okay.

Also, I will just remind you that I have no desire to see the intentional killing of unborn babies remain legal or safe.

 

[The Horn]

Fact : The more poverty in a country , the more abortions . The less poverty , the fewer abortions . This is why the prosperous countriues of western Europe and Scandinavia have the world's lowest abortion rates . The supposedly wicked, Godless, hedonistic and decadent Netherlands is the country with the world's LOWEST abortion rate .
Yes, poverty DOES cause abortion . Poor women are less able to provide for children than well off people . So they have abortions .
Take Brazil . This is the world's largest Catholic nation , and abortion is illegal here . Yet every year , more abortions happen there then in America . The predominantly Catholic Philipines also has a very high rate of illegal abortions.
Abortionis illegal in Catholic Ireland, yet Irish women routinely go
to neighboring England for safe,legal ones .
A few years ago, a young pregnant woman from India living in Ireland had a miscarriage , but the doctors refused to do an emergency abortion on her . She was in unspeakable agony for three days before she died !
If those doctors had performed an abortion on her, she would be alive today and would have been able to have more children .
This did not have to happen , and would NOT have happened in America .

 

[Rusha]

Fact : The more poverty in a country , the more abortions . The less poverty , the fewer abortions . This is why the prosperous countriues of western Europe and Scandinavia have the world's lowest abortion rates . The supposedly wicked, Godless, hedonistic and decadent Netherlands is the country with the world's LOWEST abortion rate .
Yes, poverty DOES cause abortion . Poor women are less able to provide for children than well off people . So they have abortions .
Take Brazil . This is the world's largest Catholic nation , and abortion is illegal here . Yet every year , more abortions happen there then in America . The predominantly Catholic Philipines also has a very high rate of illegal abortions.
Abortionis illegal in Catholic Ireland, yet Irish women routinely go
to neighboring England for safe,legal ones .
A few years ago, a young pregnant woman from India living in Ireland had a miscarriage , but the doctors refused to do an emergency abortion on her . She was in unspeakable agony for three days before she died !
If those doctors had performed an abortion on her, she would be alive today and would have been able to have more children .
This did not have to happen , and would NOT have happened in America .

lain: I will sum this up with one question: How does having loads of unprotected sex help those who are living in poverty?

 

[Town Heretic]

I know you folks at TOL are going to hate this , but it's my opinion .
I am pro-choice . Not "pro-abortion ". No one is pro abortion .

Except "pro-choice" is meaningless absent abortion.

I make no bones about it . I am pro-choice...because the alternative , government-ordered compulsory childbirth for pregnant women is always disastrous to society and never prevents abortion .

That's an easy one to defeat. Look at the numbers of abortions following Roe. No objective study would suggest those numbers would have or even could have happened without legalizing the procedure, though many abortions undoubtedly occurred even so.

Making a thing illegal never solves the problem, but it impacts it, beyond question. And one life saved is of inestimable value.

More abortions happen in countries where it is illegal than where it is legal,

To be fair, to make the number meaningful statistically it should be viewed as a percentage of population. I mean, if China or India had anti abortion laws you could use a raw number to make a misleading case, couldn't you.

and every year in these countries , thousands of desperately poor women die from botched illegal abortions ,leaving who knows how many children motherless . They die in agony .

Much like many of their infants then.

...before Roe...There was no way to enforce the law .

Sure there was. You find a doctor performing one and you strip him of his license. Women who might consider a relatively safe medical procedure at a medical facility under the care and supervision of a doctor aren't reasonably as likely to consider an unsafe alternative, though some undoubtedly did and would. And some people will break into your home even if you have an alarm system and a sign noting it.

Trying to stop abortion by making it illegal is like trying to stop a forest fire by poruing gasoline on it .

No, but trying to stop abortion by making it easier to procure would be.

Why do countries in Europe such as those in Scandinavia , Germany, Switzerland, Austria, the Netherlands, Belgium etc have such low abortion rates ? The lowest in the world in fact .

They're also mostly zero population growth nations, aren't they?

 

[republicanchick]

.

replace the word Abortion in your post with the word Murder, as those 2 are one and the same



here goes

I know you folks at TOL are going to hate this , but it's my opinion .
I am pro-murder . Not "pro-murder ". No one is pro murder.
I make no bones about it . I am pro-murder not because I like murder , I don't , or because I want murders to happen , which I don't , but because the alternative , government-ordered compulsory childbirth for pregnant women [as opposed to murder of the child] is always disastrous to society and never prevents
murder .
There is nothing more futile than trying to stop murder by making it illegal . It does not work , never has and never will .
Laws against murdering BORN people can be enforced . Laws against murdering fetuses cannot be enforced . No country has ever been able to do this or ever will .
More murders happen in countries where it is illegal than where it is legal, and every year in these countries , thousands of desperately poor women die from botched illegal murders ,leaving who knows how many children motherless . They die in agony .
Anti-choicers are never hosest enough to acknowledge the fact that murder was very common in America before Roe V Wade , and the fact that who knows how many women died from illegal murders, while women who could afford it arranged safe clandestine ones or went off to countries where it was legal .
How many of the countless illegal murders in America before Roe were criminally prosecuted ? You can practically count them on your fingers . There was no way to enforce the law .
Newspapers never printed stories about women dying from botched illegal murders . These were kept hushed up .
These awful conditions will return if our government ever makes murder illegal again . Many,many poor women will die , while those whoc an afford it will easily go to Canada. Europe and elsewhere for safe ,legal ones .
Trying to stop murder by making it illegal is like trying to stop a forest fire by poruing gasoline on it .
If we are going to do anythign about the problem of abprtion in America , we must strive, with the help of the government, to prevent as many unwanted pregnancies as possible . We must make sure that contraceptives are always easily available .
Our government must do more to help poor pregnant women - see to it that they get pre natal care , and that their children will not grow up in abject poverty, filth, hunger, malnutrition ,lack of medical care and lack of good education Ther eis no other way .
Why do countries in Europe such as those in Scandinavia , Germany, Switzerland, Austria, the Netherlands, Belgium etc have such low murder rates ? The lowest in the world in fact .
Because there is little poverty there, contraceptives are easily available and children who ARE born do not grow up in poor housing , poverty , hunger and helpelessness .

(Let it not be construed by anyone here that I have read this whole post; I don't have to... since murder is always wrong and I don't need to hear any further arguments otherwise)




+++

 

[quip]

Except "pro-choice" is meaningless absent abortion.

Well, actually no. It's just that the particular liberty entitled abortion.... tends to become conveniently segregated from the herd by the lifer crowd.