Why do men suffer?

[iouae]

We are truly blessed, but many people don't get to work everyday or eat meals and watch tv.

Those in Christian cultures generally do, or there is some kind of social security safety net, food stamps etc.

In many non-Christian cultures, people scratch out a living, and the fittest survive.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Why do men suffer?

One cannot blame it on Satan. Even things which Satan is allowed to do are with permission of God. God is responsible for the good and the bad.

And its not man’s fallen nature which is responsible for the problems either. God created the thorns and cursed the land. And animals have been eating each other since the Cambrian. Diseases have probably been killing off the weak since pre-history.

We can cause some of our own problems through stupidity. The movie “Jackass” comes to mind.

God makes no claim to fairness either. All men are not created equal. Some are born talented and beautiful, and others not so lucky.

Time and chance happen to all. Turns out God does play dice.

And God is not opposed to suffering. Why would He send His Son to die an agonising death if God’s priority was to have no suffering in the world?

And nothing is predestined either as the Calvinists wrongly believe. So fate cannot be blamed either.

If God had created a perfect world where it was impossible to need anything, then why would anyone need God?

God’s priority is to give people life and freedom to choose. Try designing a world where mortals have freedom of choice and no chance of hurting themselves. The world would look like a padded cell, with a person in a strait-jacket. Instead, God created a world with sharp edges, hot and cold, poisons, stinging plants and animals, edges one can fall off, rocks which can fall and crush us.

People are like fish to God. If one dies, He has more. God created an excess of humans, knowing that many would reject him. For God, it’s a game of odds.

For those who do choose Him, the rules change. They become HIS fish. Only now do they gain intrinsic value. He promises to watch over them. This does not mean that time and chance are suspended. Bad things can still happen to good people. The worst that can happen is death, and God has power over this even, to resurrect his saints.

It is a requirement of believers to develop faith. This means not falling apart and losing faith when bad things happen to them. For all eternity, God will send us places we might have second thoughts about going. That is why faith is a prerequisite to eternal life. We will not balk at His command, but go with trust in his watching over us.

One other thing. Parasites, deep water, broken glass, fire, poison, God created a world with sharp edges. We mostly manage to negotiate our way around these. And in the process we learn the meaning of the word "No". "No don't touch, go there, drink that,..."

Which is why "law" is such a big word in the Bible.
Beings with free will have to learn to say "No" to themselves.

If parents don't teach it.... then prison will.
If prison doesn't teach it, then nature will when one takes an overdose. Either way, you will learn to deny yourself. And God created the world to teach us “No”.

Where did God ever promise a perfect world? Show me the place in the book of rules. But we do live in an extremely benevolent world where 99% of the time we are neither hungry nor in pain. The people born in the worst places are generally the last to complain too. When the smallest misfortune comes upon us we cry “Why me Lord?”. In the 99% good times we never question “Why me Lord” when He blesses us.

This is not to trivialise any person’s suffering.

This is a beautiful world and we do not deserve one bit of good that we get. Every thing that brings pleasure is God’s grace. And for those who have trials, God promises His people that they will never be tempted above what they are able to bear. God will reduce the trial, or strengthen His believer, one or the other. For the uncalled, they take their chances, and God owes them nothing.

Yet God’s ultimate goal is to create us needy. Only then will we come to Him for help. Later He will give us a perfect world where all tears will be wiped away.

That was a good post.

One point, and it's not even really a counter as much as maybe an addition. Respectfully, with humility, and honesty.
Everything is predestined including our lives. God gave us free will, and with it potential and responsibility. Through all our choices God is constantly giving all new potential. He constantly sets everything out for us and gives us opportunity to follow the right direction. It is part of the giving, long suffering nature of God. He does this for us, that we might see at every opportunity and decisions we make might reflect that sight.

What I'm trying to say is that both freewill by gift of GOD, unique from most other creation, and predestination are both true. You can't really explain all the prophetic things that take place in the books without understanding that all is preordained. To me free will is like freedom to sin because we have learned how, and can be a bad thing as it has ties to the sins of man with fallen Angel. It too is actually a good thing given the circumstances we find ourselves in as we can learn from the mistakes we make and repent, and then with humility and sincerity, ask forgiveness. You have to understand that free will is the freedom to go one of two ways. Other existence adheres to the path that it has been lead down, and generally flourishes within its habitat and surroundings actually benefiting all. We, as a gift from God, have been given unique potential and dominion over readily observable existence, and with it great responsibility. We have been given the knowledge of sin basically as a test. We can love the things of this world(greed), or we can have Faith. Ultimately we will either be seen as holy in the judgement of Christ under GOD and will be counted with him, or we will be thrown out as chaff, or husks.

Sorry, I'm done. I really did like your post.

Peace

 

[popsthebuilder]

Yes, but people love that over-simplistic nonsense. They use it to excuse themselves from having to contemplate the problem any further.

It's true that some human suffering is self-inflicted. But it's also true that a lot of it is not. Much of it is being inflicted on some humans by other humans. And some of it is being inflicted on we humans in general by natural circumstances that we cannot control.

So there isn't going to be one simple answer to the question of human suffering. And there isn't going to be any set of answers that will fully resolve our wonder. But the simpletons among us don't like this. So they prefer to just invent some absurd blanket answer, adopt is as fact, and then forget the questions all together.

Ignorance is their bliss, I guess, and so it is also their modus operandi.

Utter direction under God negates suffering.

As far as suffering due to natural disaster is concerned advancements need to be made in technologies and resources availability. The only way to make any real advancement is to be one cohesive intelligent unit that works together for the benefit of all. Of course the only way to do that is for the religions or division of those faithful to the same One Creator GOD to all unify peacefully under the direction of GOD for the sake of man through Crist made available by Jesus the Christ.

Suffering is needed until one has no more to learn or offer. You will be in a blissful state indeed wholly under the guidance of GOD, for his will. If there is no self then you can't really experience suffering too much.

 

[popsthebuilder]

In pagan cultures where Satan has full sway, He does a tremendous amount of harm.

But his power is zero around Christians, apart from as the Lord allows, which may be to tempt us.

That's just not true. It specifically states that Satan can sway any but the elect of GOD, in other words; the messengers of God. And even that isn't for lack of trying.

 

[iouae]

That's just not true. It specifically states that Satan can sway any but the elect of GOD, in other words; the messengers of God. And even that isn't for lack of trying.

I agree with you, and you seem to be agreeing with what I wrote.
The Bible consistently states that all Satan has power to do is put ideas in our mind. He cannot force anyone, least of all Christians, to do anything. In pagan cultures, Satan can possess and control them WITH THEIR PERMISSION.

Folks ascribe far too much power to Satan.

Our "Let's blame Satan for everything" ascribes far too much power to Satan, power and glory which I refuse to ascribe to him. Folks like to blame this "fallen world" on Satan, as if he has power to actually change organisms, or compels people to obey him like zombies.

He has power to deceive, not to change organisms to make plants grow thorns, and snakes have venom.

We have ZERO proof Satan did this. ALL things were created by Christ. Some say Christ made zero parasites, ticks, fleas etc. This ascribes great power to Satan, which I am sure Satan would love to be thought of as having.

 

[quip]

Do you mean they "erred from the faith"?

Christianity and Judaism allow for possessions, not for attachment to them. We have to be able to turn our backs and walk away from everything we own, at a moment's notice. And if this is the end time, then we will be tested on this issue.

No. Rather the attachment to the tenets of faith itself....and the subsequent suffering inherent to the fear of failing your "test on the issue".

 

[chrysostom]

Rather, it is the duty of all to obey. Just because fallen man has no ability to do this does not change the command. That's why every time a lost person rejects the outward call of the gospel he falls deeper and deeper into covenantal curse with God. It's a savor of death unto death.

As we find in Romans 1, the wrath of God is against men for their suppressing the righteousness of God and what is known of Him. All have no excuse in their suppression of the truth of God in unrighteousness.

Even those who have never heard the Good News, including the pagan in the jungle is without excuse for they have a duty to seek after God because of God's general revelation. Paul explicitly says to the pagan Athenians in Acts 17,

Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Accordingly, general revelation reveals enough of God for us to have a duty to seek him, and if we do we will "perhaps reach out for him and find him".

We are to regard repentance and faith as the means by which the great commandment to love God and love our neighbor finds fulfillment. This duty to love God and neighbor existed before the fall and Adam certainly enjoyed the ability to do so. Our love of God is therefore still obligatory, and the means through which it is to be realized, namely repentance and faith, are likewise obligatory. All mankind owe God our love and trust by the very fact that all are His rational creatures. Adam had the ability to love and trust God before the Fall. All are still responsible to love and trust God despite the Fall and while in our unregenerate state, we do not have the ability to do so.

Note here that an imperative (the time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.) cannot be deduced from an indicative (man has the creaturely power within him to do as he is told). Romanists historically have assumed that the biblical call to perfection implied its possibility. Thanks be to God Luther knew better. What can be and what ought to be are not necessarily coordinate. That all who hear the Good News are under obligation to repent and believe (irrespective of election or reprobation) is not disproved by the reality of the fallen mind. After all, the elect had carnal minds, too, when they first heard the gospel. God's command to believe presupposes man's ability to do so. Firstly, by man's original ability, lost by the fall. Secondly, by a renewed ability, in which the Holy Spirit determines the will of the elect so that they can receive and embrace the gospel offer. [Note: Hyper-Calvinists will deny "duty-faith" on the basis that man now has no ability to believe, but we Reformed reply that the creditor does not lose His right simply because the debtor has lost his estate.]

In summary, fallen man is duty-bound to repent and believe in Christ—even though left to himself he is unable. Biblically speaking, responsibility to God does not imply or necessitate ability on our part. Yet, the basis and motive for the gospel call is not man's duty, but the grace of God in Christ. God everywhere in Scripture commands what man cannot supply, such that we may pray as Augustine, Demand what You will, O Lord, and give what You demand.”

AMR

amr is sounding like a romanist

 

[iouae]

No. Rather the attachment to the tenets of faith itself....and the subsequent suffering inherent to the fear of failing your "test on the issue".

If a child does not "fear"/respect their parents, the child will act irresponsibly and get itself into a lot of unnecessary trouble. The happiest kids are the ones who submit to their parents.

We fear God for the same reason, viz. that we feel He knows better than us, what is for our own good.

Does your faith feel things would go badly for someone departing your faith?

 

[PureX]

If a child does not "fear"/respect their parents, the child will act irresponsibly and get itself into a lot of unnecessary trouble. The happiest kids are the ones who submit to their parents.

That depends entirely on what the parents are demanding of them. The success of such blind obedience depends upon the perfection of the authority one is obeying. And no human authority is perfect. Not parents. Not priests. Not the Bible. And not our personal concepts of God and God's will. In fact, there is no perfect authority for we humans to obey, blindly. Which is why we should never do so.

God may be perfect, but our understanding of God is not. And there's no honest way around that.

We fear God for the same reason, viz. that we feel He knows better than us, what is for our own good.

We fear what we imagine God to be.

Does your faith feel things would go badly for someone departing your faith?

If so, we are the victims of religious manipulation.

 

[PureX]

Utter direction under God negates suffering.

Saying this doesn't make it true. You need to explain why you believe this.

And as you do so, please explain how you know what God's directions are. Not just what you blindly accept as God's directions, but how you know that what you are accepting as His divine authority is actually God's direction.

As far as suffering due to natural disaster is concerned advancements need to be made in technologies and resources availability. The only way to make any real advancement is to be one cohesive intelligent unit that works together for the benefit of all. Of course the only way to do that is for the religions or division of those faithful to the same One Creator GOD to all unify peacefully under the direction of GOD for the sake of man through Crist made available by Jesus the Christ.

Suffering is needed until one has no more to learn or offer. You will be in a blissful state indeed wholly under the guidance of GOD, for his will. If there is no self then you can't really experience suffering too much.

So far as I know, no human being has ever managed to determine God's will. Many think they have, and certainly there are many who are only too happy to tell the rest of us what God's will is, but when viewed logically and reasonably, I don't see how any of us can know that, for certain. We have to guess what God's will might be for us. And that leads to many mistakes, and a lot of suffering. And I know of no HONEST way around that.

 

[Ben Masada]

Why do men suffer?

Men suffer as a result of three different forms of transgressions: First, from transgressions of the Law of the Most High; second, from transgressions of the law of the land; and third, from transgressions of the law of cause & effect.

 

[popsthebuilder]

PureX,

Utter direction under God includes the understanding that all but our free will is indeed the will of GOD. Relinquishing the bindings of greed allows way for God's will to be emparted into your spirit, indeed God's spirit if one could but understand.
What I'm saying is that by removal of self and acceptance of gods will and beauty in All things one is literally without suffering as there is no self to suffer. Through the adherance of the will of GOD, GOD literally removes all negative variables. For if it is the will of God for one to suffer and die, by adherence and acceptance of that will one can find peace and tranquility and harmony.

How I personally know?

Bluntly, I was saved, literally, on many levels. Since, I have been very aware of the will of God placed on my heart. I have verified it and tested it in every conceivable way.

There are only two directions. I am well aware of both, and their natures within the limits of human understanding.

There is no guessing involved at all. If one must guess then they need to stop, and realize that they are reaching and grasping for things that have not been shown them.

Peace

Sorry for the vaqueness. It is the subject matter. Feel free to get specific with any inquiries.

Humbly,

Peace

 

[patrick jane]

Why do men suffer?


because of the women ! :idunno:

 

[chrysostom]

So far as I know, no human being has ever managed to determine God's will. Many think they have, and certainly there are many who are only too happy to tell the rest of us what God's will is, but when viewed logically and reasonably, I don't see how any of us can know that, for certain. We have to guess what God's will might be for us.

God's will is that we love Him and our neighbor

found that in the bible

 

[Ben Masada]

Why do men suffer?

because of the women ! :idunno:

To blame women, we are only proving that we are controlled by our own emotions.

 

[chrysostom]

To blame women, we are only proving that we are controlled by our own emotions.

we can blame women for obama

 

[iouae]

That depends entirely on what the parents are demanding of them. The success of such blind obedience depends upon the perfection of the authority one is obeying. And no human authority is perfect. Not parents. Not priests. Not the Bible. And not our personal concepts of God and God's will. In fact, there is no perfect authority for we humans to obey, blindly. Which is why we should never do so.

God may be perfect, but our understanding of God is not. And there's no honest way around that.
We fear what we imagine God to be.
If so, we are the victims of religious manipulation.

Just starting with the command to honour ones parents, I feel the smart thing to do is to [almost] blindly cooperate with them, if not obey them. Respect them and love them etc. as best as possible. My parents were old school, where kids were obedient or else....

I could not wait to move out, and then, increasingly, I chose to do the exact opposite of what they did, because I honestly hated a lot of it. Not so much the moral issues since they were decent folks, but small things. I also think that my folks placed an awful lot of baggage on all my siblings which I have spent the rest of my life shrugging off, as have my siblings. But I don't blame my parents. They did the best they could.

I hate to hear grown up adults blame their folks. The thing about becoming adult is to take responsibility for every choice, and to not continue family traditions which crippled you. Any adult over 25 still blaming their parents needs to blame themselves rather. Your parents may have ladened you with baggage, but it is your duty as an adult to examine your beliefs which they taught you, examine the truths they taught you, examine the child-rearing practices they used on you, and then choose to adopt these or reject them.

I really believe parents HAVE to teach children to respect authority, and accept with a good attitude the command "No". When children grow up, they can then choose which authorities to obey, and when not. We humans were put on earth to learn self denial, saying "No" to self, and parents are wonderful at teaching this.

 

[PureX]

I am clearly an 'anti-authoritarian'. For the simple reason that I see no evidence at all that any adult human being should have authority over any other. A collective of humans, by necessity, must establish some functional authority to keep order amongst themselves, and that authority should be respected. But even that will be subject to corruption, and so respected 'with skepticism'.

The relationship between parents and children should NOT be taken as any sort of model for relationships between adults. To do so would be both absurdly irresponsible and dangerously unhealthy. (I'm excluding instances of debilitating illness that render adults unable to function as adults.) Our lives, our ideals, our actions, and our reactions are our own responsibility. No one else's. And anyone who tries to set themselves up as having "authority" over us in that way is a liar and thief, and is trying to steal our autonomy. And a life without autonomy is not living life at all. It's just existing.

 

[ok doser]

we can blame women for obama

women
and
retarded men

 

[chrysostom]

women
and
retarded men

I call them girly men