ECT WHY DID PAUL HAVE AND UNTIMELY BIRTH , 1 COR 15:8 ?
- Thread starter DAN P
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Derf
Well-known member
No, I don't think they are. Sheep can't go anywhere wolves can't go. Geese can (up). Wolves might catch a goose every now and then, but much less than sheep.
Hi and here is what Rom 1:1 means !!
It reads , Paul a slave of Christ Jesus , a called apostle HAVING BEEN SEPARATED for God's GOSPEL !!
The Greek word SEPARATED /APHORIZO can be translated by the following English words , BOUNDARIES , SEPARATED or LIMITED !!
APHORIZO is a Greek verb in the PERFECT TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and PARTICIPLE !!
#! The PREFECT TENSE means that when Paul was SEPARATED FOR HIS MINISTRY , in Acts 9:6 , 1 Tim 1:15 and 16 , Paul was LIMITED TO only preach the Gospel of GRACE !!
#2 Therefore can NEVER Preach the Gospel of the KINGDOM or BAPTIZO / BAPTISM , that the 12 Preached !!
#3, The Greek PASSIVE VOICE means it was God's doing !!
#4 The Greek Particle is HAVING , a done deal as to Paul's calling and all PARTICLES always end in " ING " if it is a good translation !!
dan p
glorydaz
Well-known member
They should be. They take quite some flapping to get up out of a wolf's reach. Plus they can't fly when they molt.
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You assume sheep, without support. You have ONE verse that you make this assumption about. If there were any other verses, you'd show them.
Paul says that we are NOT sheep (Romans 8:36-37).
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Do you have some support for thinking that they are not literal?
You can't just brush verses away that way. There needs to a clear reason to take them non-literally.
Respectfully, it does not appear you have studied these things out beyond a few passages of Scripture and an obvious conjecture about them.
Were you to study this topic out in more depth, you'd find that said Twelve Thrones are every bit both Spiritual and Literal as a working concept of Twelve Literal Princes under Moses described in the OT, back when they were set up as a means of dividing up the labor of governing that ruling Israel consisted of.
Those Twelve Princes were very Literal and their roles were in accordance with various concepts and principles for the governing of Israel under their Law.
And the concept is in a sense still very much alive in passages where the Lord every so often mentions various of Israel's rulers and or actions like the need to take one's grievances "to the church" (Israel / the Kingdom of God).
The sense is no different than that of "a seat of power" within the U.S. Government.
Such seats are both Spiritual (are based on and involve various concepts and principles) and Literal (actually exist physically).
Anyway, enjoy the study on that - there is good amount of info on it in the OT.
For, with the exception of various concepts and principles unique alone to Romans thru Philemon (much in them of which had been "hid in God") the balance of the NT does not so much "interpret" the OT, as base itself on much that had long been established in the OT.
Numbers 1:44 These are those that were numbered, which Moses and Aaron numbered, and the princes of Israel, being twelve men: each one was for the house of his fathers.
Romans 5:6-8.
Again (though I agree the CONCEPT there in Acts is that of sheep), you are still going more by your own reasoning about it all.
The CONCEPT is that of one four legged predator (a wolf) able to disguise itself to where it appears anything but a wolf AMONG other four legged animals as its intended prey (sheep), is a constant throughout Scripture.
The CONCEPT is that of a predator able to hang out with, come and go, and so on, within their ranks.
Ezekiel 22:27 Her princes IN THE MIDST THEREOF are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in AMONG YOU, not sparing the flock. 20:30 ALSO OF YOUR OWN SELVES shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
The CONCEPT, the predator in mind, is that of one that is able to appear to look like, and walk like, and quack like a "fellow" duck.
It has "a FORM of godliness."
So that, in the end, the thing is a CONCEPT, not actually one animal or another.
A CONCEPT conveyed via Analogy based on a facet of everyday life that most back then would have been very familiar with - that of Sheep, a Shephard, and the various Predator issues such faced, from a Wolf, and thus, that of the need for Very Vigilant Measures against such.
Here is that same CONCEPT via the Analogy of a different Predator...
Ezekiel 13:4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
And so on...
The thing is that of a CONCEPT conveyed via Everyday Familar Analogies, back then.
Romans 5:6-8.
Derf
Well-known member
So you say and said before, but without persuasive hermeneutical reasoning, including purposely leaving off the provided context of vs 35. In fact, the passage clearly says those things happen, but don't affect our relationship with Christ, just as you can't say principalities and powers, life and death, height and depth don't exist because they can't separate us from His love (Rom 8:38-39). After all, you can't conquer something you never have a problem with. To say that a 7-year-old has "conquered" acne or pornography addiction or arthritis would be laughable.
[Rom 8:35 KJV] Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
[Rom 8:36 KJV] As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
[Rom 8:37 KJV] Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
To say that the "nay" is an indication of not experiencing those things in verse 35 suggests that the body of Christ will never undergo any tribulation or persecution or famine. Yet Christ Himself confirms that at least some of the church has and will. For example:
[Rev 2:9 KJV] I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.
Derf
Well-known member
Agreed. Just like Jesus wasn't saying His people are really sheep, and He isn't literally standing in a field watching over His flocks, especially while seated at the right hand of the Father, and being the door of the sheepfold.
Are "thrones" possibly treated the same way? Will Jesus literally sit on David's throne, [MENTION=15338]Right Divider[/MENTION]? You know, the one that probably disintegrated 2500 or more years ago? Or does that just mean Jesus will rule over His people.
If Jesus kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36), does it make sense to talk of His throne, or David's throne, and the thrones of His apostles as literal? Or do figurative thrones make more sense? Are figurative shepherds and sheep more likely than literal shepherds and sheep? Are figurative wolves going to be coming into the figurative flock, or are they real wolves with real teeth attacking real sheep with real wool (or real geese with real feathers, if [MENTION=8445]DAN P[/MENTION] prefers)?
Right Divider
Body part
Yes, Jesus will literally sit on David's throne. It does NOT have to be the same throne that David sat on. David's throne is the kingdom of Israel with its capital in Jerusalem.... a literal kingdom with a literal capital and a literal King on a literal throne.
So you are another that abuses that scripture? Read the ENTIRE verse and don't leave ANYTHING out.
Joh 18:36 KJV Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
I was THEN (NOW) that His kingdom was "not of this world". Even the "not of this world" does NOT mean that is was "only a spiritual kingdom" as too many confused people say.
The figurative always points to the literal.
Put your magic wand back in its holster and just take the text for what it really means.
Derf;5291664 [Rom 8:37 KJV said:
Hi and under what reason can connect Rev 2:9 to Rom 8:37 as the Greek word ARE MORE SUPER-CONQUERORS / HYPERNIKO which is in the PRESENT TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD !!
Paul is writing to believers under the GRACE OF GOD , NOW and not to those assemblies in the book of the REVELATION that are yet to happen !!
dan p
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Paul says NAY.... we are NOT sheep. Did you want me to quote the entire book of Romans?
Paul is NOT saying that all of those in the body of Christ will not suffer those things. He is says that EVEN in those things we are more than conquers. Paul himself suffered many of those things.
The book of Revelation is TOTALLY and THOROUGHLY Israeli.
Aren't you one of those "spiritual Israel" people that say they are Jews, but are not?
1Ki_2:12 Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.
1Ki_2:45 And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.
David's son Solomon reigned from David's throne.
The particular furniture doesn't matter:
1Ki 10:18 Moreover the king[Solomon] made a great throne of ivory, and overlaid it with the best gold.
1Ki 10:19 The throne had six steps, and the top of the throne was round behind: and there were stays on either side on the place of the seat, and two lions stood beside the stays.
The location[Mt Zion/Jerusalem], the identity of the King's subject[twelve tribes of Israel], and the extent of King's authority matters, all of which can be demonstrated from Scripture.
1Ki_2:45 And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.
David's son Solomon reigned from David's throne.
The particular furniture doesn't matter:
1Ki 10:18 Moreover the king[Solomon] made a great throne of ivory, and overlaid it with the best gold.
1Ki 10:19 The throne had six steps, and the top of the throne was round behind: and there were stays on either side on the place of the seat, and two lions stood beside the stays.
The location[Mt Zion/Jerusalem], the identity of the King's subject[twelve tribes of Israel], and the extent of King's authority matters, all of which can be demonstrated from Scripture.
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Lol - now you're the one mixing sheep and geese, lol
Israel's King David was as Literal-Physical as was his throne, and their Kingdom.
A Literal-Physical Kingdom the Scripture repeatedly refers to as the Kingdom of God and its' citizens (Israel) the children of the Kingdom, guided by Spiritual Principles.
In contrast, as I have pointed out elsewhere on here, the Body's is a Literal-Spiritual reality, guided by Spiritual Principles.
It because both are guided in accordance with Spiritual Principles, that people confuse the two as merely a Figure of a Spiritual Reality.
Which is not true.
Israel's Literal-Physical Kingdom Realities:
Luke 22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
The Body's Literal-Spritual Kingdom Reality:
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
These Things That Differ between the two are a constant within many passages throughout the NT (Israel) and Romans through Philemon (the Body).
Romans 5:6-8.
Derf
Well-known member
So you'll allow for a non-literal "David's throne", but everything else is literal, including the sitting. Yet Jesus said the Pharisees sit in Moses' chair. (That sounds rather crowded, don't you think, all those pharisees in one chair?) And He describes what that means:
[Mat 23:2 KJV] Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
[Mat 23:3 KJV] All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
He was saying they are the ruling authority, so the people were to follow their commands, even though He continued by saying they were binding heavy burdens on the people:
[Mat 23:4 KJV] For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.
Only a spiritual kingdom? Hardly. It was/is a kingdom that had/has real physical implications on our lives, real changes in our hearts, and real, observable effects on our actions. It was a kingdom whose power was given to the Gentiles for a time (maybe even a time, times, and a half a time). And eventually that kingdom will be THE kingdom on earth, where He rules all nations. And nations that bow the knee to Jesus Christ will thrive and prosper, as long as they don't then chase after the world.
I admit I'm not sure where to draw the line between physical and spiritual, but I have a hard time drawing it between the believing Jews and the body of Christ. Between believers and non-believers makes much more sense of the scriptures.
[Eph 2:18 KJV] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
[Eph 2:19 KJV] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
[Eph 2:20 KJV] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
That doesn't remove the Jews from a place of prominence in His kingdom plans, but it might require them to wait until they are willing to follow His plan and not theirs. Until they say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." (Matt 23:39)
If you believe the figurative points to the literal, then you would have no problem believing that the thrones the apostles sit on are figurative, pointing to the position they were to have, and seemingly already have had, in ruling over Christ's church.([Mat 16:18 KJV] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.)
(Oh, was that a figurative or a literal rock???, and could He build a literal church on a figurative rock? Or was it a figurative church on a literal rock? Was Peter (and the rest of the apostles) a part of the same foundation Paul talks about? Of course he was!)
And did Jesus really mean what He said that it wasn't His to say who would sit on His right and left in His kingdom? Was it figurative or literal? Remember this was James and John asking for the favor. Isn't it interesting that James was the first apostle to be martyred, and John was the last one living?
Derf
Well-known member
Yes, but Jesus had John write to churches that were existing at that time, and most of which don't exist today.
[Rev 1:11 ESV] saying, "Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea." And these were not Jewish churches. These were churches that John ministered to, that Paul established. The church of Ephesus was the one Paul talked to in Acts on the way to be bound in Jerusalem. You know...where he called them "sheep". :chuckle:
You have to figuratize the churches in Rev 1:11 to maintain your "literal" stance.
And here's what John says to these seven gentile churches:
[Rev 1:4 ESV] John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,
[Rev 1:5 ESV] and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
[Rev 1:6 ESV] and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.]
To those real and existing churches, John wrote about the kingdom that had already been made. He then went on to describe some coming events (some of which haven't happened yet, even to our day, but some of which might have already happened).
Right Divider
Body part
You need to learn to understand figures of speech. The Bible uses TONS of them (as we all actually do in normal everyday life).
David's throne is literally the kingdom of Israel.
Once AGAIN, learn what a FIGURE OF SPEECH is so that you will not be so confused all of the time.
Indeed, they were to follow the law of Moses as written and not the "laws" of the leaders that had perverted them.
Now you're just mangling things beyond all recognition.
And yet in THAT kingdom, Israel will have a special place above other nations. The other nations will serve Israel and their King.
Yes, and yet Paul said that he did not want to build on any other foundation than the one that he himself laid. Romans 15:20 & 1 Cor 3:10
But TODAY there is NEITHER Jew NOR Greek in the body of Christ. Can't you see the difference?
Once again, from the TEXT (the Bible) there is no reason to believe that they are not literal thrones. Nothing in the passage even hints at figurative thrones.
You just want to put everything into doubt, don't you?
Please demonstrate FROM THE TEXT why you would think that the twelve thrones are not twelve thrones... maybe the twelve tribes are not twelve tribes (they are, I'm just making an example).