WHY DID MESSIAH HAVE TO DIE?

[Elia]

What can you put on the other side of the scale to balance out?

Bs"d

Good deeds.

Observing God's commandments.

Of course Christians cannot do that, because they threw God's laws overboard and replaced them with paganism.

But the Jews go by God's laws.


"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil."
Eccl. 12:13

 

[God's Truth]

Bs"d

All Christians are lawless idolatrous pagans.


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5

I obey God. You say you are a Jew but you have no temple, no tent, and no blood offering. You have no faith.

 

[Caino]

Bs"d

And then why was the first Temple destroyed?

That's a good question in response. I don't know the answer beyond saying it could have been the ordinary coarse of history, strong people conquering smaller groups. Every culture is tempted to explain every victory or disaster in relation to their national deity. I try to put myself in the position of the sincere Jewish people and wonder why the big picture is so elusive. I'm not one who believes God deliberately blinds sincere people. But honestly, I think the years of persecution against the Jewish people has caused them to be a bit stubborn, unwilling to consider that there is a wee bit of purely human speculation woven into the traditions of their scripture writings. People underestimate the effect Babylon had on the Israelites.

 

[Elia]

That's a good question in response. I don't know the answer beyond saying it could have been the ordinary coarse of history, strong people conquering smaller groups. Every culture is tempted to explain every victory or disaster in relation to their national deity. I try to put myself in the position of the sincere Jewish people and wonder why the big picture is so elusive. I'm not one who believes God deliberately blinds sincere people. But honestly, I think the years of persecution against the Jewish people has caused them to be a bit stubborn, unwilling to consider that there is a wee bit of purely human speculation woven into the traditions of their scripture writings. People underestimate the effect Babylon had on the Israelites.

Bs"d

And why could the above reasons not apply for the destruction of the second Temple?

 

[Caino]

Bs"d

And why could the above reasons not apply for the destruction of the second Temple?

You are right, It could, but Jesus seemed to indicate that basically the security guards were finally being withdrawn.


"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."

I feel that if only the teachings of Jesus and the kingdom were considered spiritually instead of literally, long term instead of all at once, then OT prophecy would make more sense in relation to Jesus.

 

[Ben Masada]

Also, Jesus elected to pass through the death experience like he passed through the life experience, it was the Fathers will that he do so. Man is called to pass through death, but now we have a God who has also done it. He could have simply vanished and returned to his rightful place in haven but the Father had further plans for the Son.

How could God plan that His firstborn son be Israel, the People and then change His mind and go for the individual and not the people? (Exodus 4:22,23) "Israel is My Son; let My son go that He may serve Me." Then, the same God inspired Prophet Habakkuk about His Messiah in the People of Israel. "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what the Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Jewish People. (Habakkuk 3:13)

 

[intojoy]

Redemption became necessary when sin entered the human sphere and separated man from God. When Adam and Eve committed that first act of disobedience, sin entered and separated them from God. From that point on, the means of bridging the separation of man from God was by means of blood. This bridging of the gap is called “redemption.” In the history of God's dealing with His People, the means of redemption was always by blood.

The redemptive element of blood begins to come into the theme of Scripture at the same time that sin does, for until sin came no blood was necessary.

We read in Genesis 3:21, that just as soon as man is expelled from the Garden of Eden: Jehovah God made for Adam and for his wife coats of skins, and clothed them.

The skins were animal skins. The nakedness that the element of sin now revealed, needed to be covered. But the covering required the death of several animals, and so for the first time in history, blood was shed. This provides the root meaning of the Hebrew word for atonement, which is “a covering.”




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[Caino]

How could God plan that His firstborn son be Israel, the People and then change His mind and go for the individual and not the people? (Exodus 4:22,23) "Israel is My Son; let My son go that He may serve Me." Then, the same God inspired Prophet Habakkuk about His Messiah in the People of Israel. "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what the Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Jewish People. (Habakkuk 3:13)

Ben, I think it's a mistake to take everything that every holy man wrote or rewrote as coming directly from God. Your fellow Jews see the same scriptures and come away with a completely different take than you do. Christians also widely disagree over the same sentence in scripture. I look at the big picture. There was I believe and Abram, he had faith in an unknown future destiny of his descendants. But, between Abram and the Son of God incarnate there was a whole lot of conjecture and speculation which has lead to a bunch of confusion!

 

[Ben Masada]

Ben, I think it's a mistake to take everything that every holy man wrote or rewrote as coming directly from God. Your fellow Jews see the same scriptures and come away with a completely different take than you do. Christians also widely disagree over the same sentence in scripture. I look at the big picture. There was I believe and Abram, he had faith in an unknown future destiny of his descendants. But, between Abram and the Son of God incarnate there was a whole lot of conjecture and speculation which has lead to a bunch of confusion!

The son of God incarnate was not Jesus as an individual but Israel as the People. Please, read Exodus 4:22,23.

 

[Ben Masada]

Redemption became necessary when sin entered the human sphere and separated man from God. When Adam and Eve committed that first act of disobedience, sin entered and separated them from God. From that point on, the means of bridging the separation of man from God was by means of blood. This bridging of the gap is called “redemption.” In the history of God's dealing with His People, the means of redemption was always by blood.

The redemptive element of blood begins to come into the theme of Scripture at the same time that sin does, for until sin came no blood was necessary.

We read in Genesis 3:21, that just as soon as man is expelled from the Garden of Eden: Jehovah God made for Adam and for his wife coats of skins, and clothed them.

The skins were animal skins. The nakedness that the element of sin now revealed, needed to be covered. But the covering required the death of several animals, and so for the first time in history, blood was shed. This provides the root meaning of the Hebrew word for atonement, which is “a covering.”

There was no disobedience in the Garden of Eden. What happened in there was an application of the "Lord's Catch-22"

The Lord's Catch-22

Ignorance is an abomination in the Lord's sight. When Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat of the tree of knowledge, it was the Lord's catch-22 to rather enhance man's appetite for the tree of knowledge. If the prohibition were to be observed, the fruit of that tree would not have been so enticing and the tree would not have been planted in the center of the garden to call the attention of all. And the Lord would not have employed the services of the serpent to explain that they had misunderstood the command which had been meant to be rather the opposite. As Adam and Eve realized what the Lord really meant, the abomination of ignorance had been neutralized.

 

[Caino]

Different Son.

 

[intojoy]

There was no disobedience in the Garden of Eden. What happened in there was an application of the "Lord's Catch-22"

The Lord's Catch-22

Ignorance is an abomination in the Lord's sight. When Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat of the tree of knowledge, it was the Lord's catch-22 to rather enhance man's appetite for the tree of knowledge. If the prohibition were to be observed, the fruit of that tree would not have been so enticing and the tree would not have been planted in the center of the garden to call the attention of all. And the Lord would not have employed the services of the serpent to explain that they had misunderstood the command which had been meant to be rather the opposite. As Adam and Eve realized what the Lord really meant, the abomination of ignorance had been neutralized.

And the skins?

 

[Caino]

It was the Fathers will for the Son to incarnate as one of the creator Sons own co-created beings. He both lived and died while subject to the Fathers will as man is required to do. Death or translation is a normal part of life. Even though Jesus never specifically alluded to his death as an atoneing sacrifice, his Jewish disciples assumed it in hind site. The Pagan world was open to this speculation so they were more receptive to converting to the sacrifice version of the Jesus story. Peter and Pauls new gospel about the cross became Christianity.

 

[beameup]

Bs"d

Because he was a false messiah, who failed in fulfilling the messianic prophecies.

On top of that he as a man claimed to be God, thereby leading the masses into idolatry.

You don't even know your own scriptures.
YHWH directly delivered a message to Daniel through the Archangel Gabriel concerning Messiah the Prince.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off [karath], but not for himself - Daniel 9:26a

Stop deceiving yourself.

 

[Vintage68]

"Why did Messiah have to die?" Peter's objection to the revelation that Messiah had to die (Mathew 16:22-23 and John 6:61-64)



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John 12:27
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: (BUT FOR THIS CAUSE CAME I UNTO THIS HOUR)

John 18:37
Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. (TO THIS END WAS I BORN, AND FOR THIS CAUSE CAME I INTO THE WORLD), (THAT I SHOULD BEAR WITINESS TO THE TRUTH). Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Rom. 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, (GOD SENDING HIS OWN SON IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH,AND FOR SIN, CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH)

John 3:16
(FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD), that he gave his only begotten Son, (THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE).

Scripture itself tells us why, end of story.

 

[marhig]

John 12:27
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: (BUT FOR THIS CAUSE CAME I UNTO THIS HOUR)

John 18:37
Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. (TO THIS END WAS I BORN, AND FOR THIS CAUSE CAME I INTO THE WORLD), (THAT I SHOULD BEAR WITINESS TO THE TRUTH). Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Rom. 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, (GOD SENDING HIS OWN SON IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH,AND FOR SIN, CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH)

John 3:16
(FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD), that he gave his only begotten Son, (THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE).

Scripture itself tells us why, end of story.

None of those verses show that Jesus had to die on the cross to save us. Jesus came to be a witness of the truth, to bring us the gospel and to overcome the world and Satan. Which he did. He is the way the truth and the life.

It says in the Bible that we are saved by his life not his death

Romans 5

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life

Jesus came here and was born to be a witness to the truth.

John 18

Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Jesus didn't come to be crucified but to be a witness of the truth. He is the Messiah, he was anointed by God and he had the strength the holy spirit fully through him because he obeyed God completely, and did his will, denying his own. Jesus came and did what Adam couldn't do.

Jesus lived his life completely doing the will of God, he came and obeyed God and completely denied Satan, not giving into him once. Even at the cross, Jesus had to bare everything Satan threw at him, and show love compassion and mercy. He overcame Satan and never sinned right to his last breath, even asking God to forgive those who murdered him.

And another thing, God never ever forsook Jesus, he was with him and strengthening him right the way through, God never forsakes those that love him. I know God didn't forsake Jesus, because he prayed to God so God must have been listening, and as he died he said "father into your hands I commend my spirit" God never left him.

The cross that Jesus bore, is the same cross that he tells us that we must bare. He came as a living sacrifice, in the same way that we are told to be in the scriptures. And he denied Satan just as he tells us to. He came and showed us the way back to God. He was dead to this world and we are reconciled to God by that death, but we are saved by his life, which is living it out and his spirit resurrected in us, helping us to overcome and saving us daily from Satan. As we die daily, he lives daily. Thus we show Christ in our lives.

Jesus said deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me. And we follow him by doing as he did, we live out out, he denied his flesh, and he bore his cross.

We must obey God, and if we have Christ in our hearts we will obey his commandants. Because if we love the lord our God with all our hearts, soul, mind and strength, and our neighbour as ourselves then we won't break the commandments of God. And with God, all things are possible.

Those who believe, and don't take up their cross, are not worthy of him. We must live it out.

 

[beameup]

How could God plan that His firstborn son be Israel, the People and then change His mind and go for the individual and not the people? (Exodus 4:22,23) "Israel is My Son; let My son go that He may serve Me." Then, the same God inspired Prophet Habakkuk about His Messiah in the People of Israel. "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what the Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Jewish People. (Habakkuk 3:13)

The "son" analogy was to link with the "firstborn" of Egypt that would be taken (die) if Pharaoh refused to let "God's son" go.
According to Jeremiah, YHWH was the husband of Israel (the "wife")

Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:31-33

According to Hosea, Israel is an adulterous wife.