Why Calvinist Cannot Defend Their Doctrine of a Limited Atonement

[beloved57]

Supported by two scriptures, but you are blind to them.

In your dreams!

 

[Robert Pate]

In your dreams!

Even if I showed you dozens of scriptures the refute your phony doctrine you would not believe.

You prefer the words of a heretic.

 

[beloved57]

Even if I showed you dozens of scriptures the refute your phony doctrine you would not believe.

You prefer the words of a heretic.

You don't believe or understand those verses!

 

[Robert Pate]

You don't believe or understand those verses!

We will see won't we?

 

[beloved57]

We will see won't we?

See you at the Judgment

 

[Robert Pate]

See you at the Judgment

I will not be at the judgment. My judgment has already taken place in Christ,

 

[beloved57]

I will not be at the judgment. My judgment has already taken place in Christ,

You will be there

 

[Robert Pate]

You will be there

You are the man in Jude 4.

 

[beloved57]

You are the man in Jude 4.

That's you, you have been ordained to this condemnation!

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I am not going to post a 1000 word refutal.

The Bible plainly says that Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Salvation has been provided for all that want to be saved, so that now... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Those two scriptures refute you and your doctrine.

Posting Scripture with some winsome boldface formatting is no substitute for the historical and grammatical hermeneutical method drawing upon the full counsel of Scripture.

Yours is but a pretext for a prooftext without a context. There is no doubt that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. The issue here is that not all call upon the name of the Lord and hence, the matter at hand that underlies this plain fact. Therein lies the disagreement between the synergist and the monergist on matters of salvation. I prefer to leave absolutely zero room for my re-birth to anything I think I have done to "receive" it. That is monergism, part and parcel.

Digging a wee bit deeper:

Spoiler

MONERGISTIC REGENERATION

The doctrine of justification by faith alone was debated during the Reformation on the deeper level of monergistic regeneration. This technical term must be explained. Monergism is derived from a combination of a prefix and a root. The prefix mono is used frequently in English to indicate that which is single or alone. The root comes from the verb “to work.” The erg of monergy comes into our language to indicate a unit of work or energy. When we put the prefix and root together, we get monergy or monergism. Monergism is something that operates by itself or works alone as the sole active party.

Monergism is the opposite of synergism. Synergism shares a common root with monergism, but it has a different prefix. The prefix syn comes from a Greek word meaning “with.” Synergism is a cooperative venture, a working together of two or more parties.

When the term monergism is linked with the word regeneration, the phrase describes an action by which God the Holy Spirit works on a human being without this person’s assistance or cooperation. This grace of regeneration may be called operative grace. Cooperative grace, on the other hand, is grace that God offers to sinners and that they may accept or reject, depending on the sinner’s disposition.

Monergistic regeneration is exclusively a divine act. Man does not have the creative power God has. To quicken a person who is spiritually dead is something only God can do. A corpse cannot revive itself. It cannot even assist in the effort. It can only respond after receiving new life. Not only can it respond then, it most certainly will respond. In regeneration the soul of man is utterly passive until it has been made alive. It offers no help in reviving itself, though once revived it is empowered to act and respond.

Perhaps a good illustration of monergistic, life-giving power is the raising of Lazarus from the dead, a story told in the Gospel of John:

Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.” Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?”
Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.”
Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”
Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him. But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did. John 11:38-46
​

Lazarus was dead, not critically ill or at the point of dying. He was already a corpse and was decomposing. The stench from his rotting body was repugnant to his sister Martha. The miracle of his resurrection was accomplished without means, that is, without balms, medicines, CpR, and so forth. The only power Christ used here was the power of his voice. He uttered a command, not a request or an invitation. He made no attempt to woo Lazarus from the tomb. This resurrection was strictly monergistic. Lazarus rendered absolutely no assistance. He was incapable of assisting in any way because he was completely dead.

Some may argue that though Christ supplied the initial power of Lazarus’s resurrection, Lazarus nevertheless had to respond to Christ’s command to come forth from the tomb. Is this not a cooperative work, a synergism between Christ and Lazarus? Most of the confusion regarding regeneration enters the picture here. Obviously Lazarus did respond. He came out of the tomb in obedience to Jesus’ command. After life flowed anew in Lazarus’s body, he became quite active. Monergistic regeneration has to do, not with the whole process of redemption, but strictly with the initial condition or first step of our coming to faith. To be sure, Lazarus acted. He responded. He came forth from the tomb. But the crucial point is that he did none of these things while he was still dead. He did not respond to the call of Christ until after he had been made alive. His resurrection preceded his coming forth from the tomb. His restoration to life preceded his response.

Arminians do not appreciate this analogy and protest that we are here comparing apples and oranges. Obviously in the case of physical death, a corpse cannot respond or cooperate. It has no power to respond because it is dead. But there is a difference between physical death and spiritual death. A physically dead person can do nothing either physically or spiritually. A spiritually dead person is still alive biologically. This person can still act, work, respond, make decisions, and so forth. He can say yes to grace, or he can say no.

Here we reach the ultimate point of separation between semi-Pelagianism and Augustinianism, between Arminianism and Calvinism, between Rome and the Reformation. Here we discover whether we are utterly dependent on grace for our salvation or if, while still in the flesh, still in bondage to sin, and still dead in sin, we can cooperate with grace in such a way that affects our eternal destiny.

In the Reformation view, the work of regeneration is performed by God and by him alone. The sinner is completely passive in receiving this action. Regeneration is an example of operative grace. Any cooperation we display toward God occurs only after the work of regeneration has been completed. Of course we respond to this work.

We respond in a manner similar to that of Lazarus when, after being loosed, he stepped out of the tomb. In like manner we step out of our tombs of spiritual death. We also respond when we hear the call of Christ. Our regeneration does not preclude such a response, but is designed to make this response not only possible but certain. The point is, however, that unless we first receive the grace of regeneration, we will not and cannot respond to the gospel in a positive way. Regeneration must occur first before there can be any positive response of faith.

Arminianism reverses the order of salvation. It has faith preceding regeneration. The sinner, who is dead in sin and in bondage to sin, must somehow shed his chains, revive his spiritual vitality, and exercise faith so that he or she may be born again. In a very real sense regeneration is not so much a gift in this schema as it is a reward for responding to the offer of grace. The Arminian argues that in this schema grace is primary, in that God first offers grace for regeneration. God takes the initiative. He makes the first move and takes the first step. But this step is not decisive. This step may be thwarted by the sinner. If the sinner refuses to cooperate with or assent to this proffered grace, then grace is to no avail.

Source:
Sproul, R. C. (2005-06-01). What is Reformed Theology?: Understanding the Basics

Now you know the basic details of my view, all out in the open and explained nicely in the above outlining the real heart of the matter of limited atonement and so on. It all begins with coming to an understanding of exactly what is man's condition since the fall of Adam. Is man merely wounded, or is he spiritually dead. I say the latter and in no place will you find it implied or stated that a person disagreeing with my view is to be considered bound for hell.

AMR

 

[Robert Pate]

Posting Scripture with some winsome boldface formatting is no substitute for the historical and grammatical hermeneutical method drawing upon the full counsel of Scripture.

Yours is but a pretext for a prooftext without a context. There is no doubt that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. The issue here is that not all call upon the name of the Lord and hence, the matter at hand that underlies this plain fact. Therein lies the disagreement between the synergist and the monergist on matters of salvation. I prefer to leave absolutely zero room for my re-birth to anything I think I have done to "receive" it. That is monergism, part and parcel.

Digging a wee bit deeper:

Spoiler

MONERGISTIC REGENERATION

The doctrine of justification by faith alone was debated during the Reformation on the deeper level of monergistic regeneration. This technical term must be explained. Monergism is derived from a combination of a prefix and a root. The prefix mono is used frequently in English to indicate that which is single or alone. The root comes from the verb “to work.” The erg of monergy comes into our language to indicate a unit of work or energy. When we put the prefix and root together, we get monergy or monergism. Monergism is something that operates by itself or works alone as the sole active party.

Monergism is the opposite of synergism. Synergism shares a common root with monergism, but it has a different prefix. The prefix syn comes from a Greek word meaning “with.” Synergism is a cooperative venture, a working together of two or more parties.

When the term monergism is linked with the word regeneration, the phrase describes an action by which God the Holy Spirit works on a human being without this person’s assistance or cooperation. This grace of regeneration may be called operative grace. Cooperative grace, on the other hand, is grace that God offers to sinners and that they may accept or reject, depending on the sinner’s disposition.

Monergistic regeneration is exclusively a divine act. Man does not have the creative power God has. To quicken a person who is spiritually dead is something only God can do. A corpse cannot revive itself. It cannot even assist in the effort. It can only respond after receiving new life. Not only can it respond then, it most certainly will respond. In regeneration the soul of man is utterly passive until it has been made alive. It offers no help in reviving itself, though once revived it is empowered to act and respond.

Perhaps a good illustration of monergistic, life-giving power is the raising of Lazarus from the dead, a story told in the Gospel of John:

Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.” Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?”
Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.”
Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”
Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him. But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did. John 11:38-46
​

Lazarus was dead, not critically ill or at the point of dying. He was already a corpse and was decomposing. The stench from his rotting body was repugnant to his sister Martha. The miracle of his resurrection was accomplished without means, that is, without balms, medicines, CpR, and so forth. The only power Christ used here was the power of his voice. He uttered a command, not a request or an invitation. He made no attempt to woo Lazarus from the tomb. This resurrection was strictly monergistic. Lazarus rendered absolutely no assistance. He was incapable of assisting in any way because he was completely dead.

Some may argue that though Christ supplied the initial power of Lazarus’s resurrection, Lazarus nevertheless had to respond to Christ’s command to come forth from the tomb. Is this not a cooperative work, a synergism between Christ and Lazarus? Most of the confusion regarding regeneration enters the picture here. Obviously Lazarus did respond. He came out of the tomb in obedience to Jesus’ command. After life flowed anew in Lazarus’s body, he became quite active. Monergistic regeneration has to do, not with the whole process of redemption, but strictly with the initial condition or first step of our coming to faith. To be sure, Lazarus acted. He responded. He came forth from the tomb. But the crucial point is that he did none of these things while he was still dead. He did not respond to the call of Christ until after he had been made alive. His resurrection preceded his coming forth from the tomb. His restoration to life preceded his response.

Arminians do not appreciate this analogy and protest that we are here comparing apples and oranges. Obviously in the case of physical death, a corpse cannot respond or cooperate. It has no power to respond because it is dead. But there is a difference between physical death and spiritual death. A physically dead person can do nothing either physically or spiritually. A spiritually dead person is still alive biologically. This person can still act, work, respond, make decisions, and so forth. He can say yes to grace, or he can say no.

Here we reach the ultimate point of separation between semi-Pelagianism and Augustinianism, between Arminianism and Calvinism, between Rome and the Reformation. Here we discover whether we are utterly dependent on grace for our salvation or if, while still in the flesh, still in bondage to sin, and still dead in sin, we can cooperate with grace in such a way that affects our eternal destiny.

In the Reformation view, the work of regeneration is performed by God and by him alone. The sinner is completely passive in receiving this action. Regeneration is an example of operative grace. Any cooperation we display toward God occurs only after the work of regeneration has been completed. Of course we respond to this work.

We respond in a manner similar to that of Lazarus when, after being loosed, he stepped out of the tomb. In like manner we step out of our tombs of spiritual death. We also respond when we hear the call of Christ. Our regeneration does not preclude such a response, but is designed to make this response not only possible but certain. The point is, however, that unless we first receive the grace of regeneration, we will not and cannot respond to the gospel in a positive way. Regeneration must occur first before there can be any positive response of faith.

Arminianism reverses the order of salvation. It has faith preceding regeneration. The sinner, who is dead in sin and in bondage to sin, must somehow shed his chains, revive his spiritual vitality, and exercise faith so that he or she may be born again. In a very real sense regeneration is not so much a gift in this schema as it is a reward for responding to the offer of grace. The Arminian argues that in this schema grace is primary, in that God first offers grace for regeneration. God takes the initiative. He makes the first move and takes the first step. But this step is not decisive. This step may be thwarted by the sinner. If the sinner refuses to cooperate with or assent to this proffered grace, then grace is to no avail.

Source:
Sproul, R. C. (2005-06-01). What is Reformed Theology?: Understanding the Basics

Now you know the basic details of my view, all out in the open and explained nicely in the above outlining the real heart of the matter of limited atonement and so on. It all begins with coming to an understanding of exactly what is man's condition since the fall of Adam. Is man merely wounded, or is he spiritually dead. I say the latter and in no place will you find it implied or stated that a person disagreeing with my view is to be considered bound for hell.

AMR

Another smoke screen.

Paul said that the Gospel is a simple message, 2 Corinthians 11:3. You make it very complicated.

There is no regeneration before salvation. Regeneration is a work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer after he is saved, not before.

You say nothing about the Gospel. Apparently you don't believe the Gospel. The Gospel is the heart of Christianity, yet there is no Gospel in your theology.

The word Gospel is not in your vocabulary. The Gospel is the means by which God justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. You apparently don't believe any of that.

If Calvinism were true, which it is not, God would be unjust. If God saved some by imposing his will on them, why didn't he save all? God imposes his will on no one. We are not robots and puppets. We are human beings with the power to think and make decisions.

Whosoever means, ALL, ANYONE, EVERYONE,

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

We are human beings with the power to think and make decisions.

As I have noted repeatedly, yours is a view of cooperation in your re-birth (synergism). Mine (monergism) is not. It all starts at this point.

I just cannot bring myself to the point of trusting in my natural ability as a fallen sinner to pray, if I were consistent in such a synergistic view as yours...

"Lord...If everybody has done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know you do not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. You give grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do.

There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Spirit given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am.

It was not your grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not - that is the difference between me and them."
​

:AMR1:

AMR

 

[Robert Pate]

As I have noted repeatedly, yours is a view of cooperation in your re-birth (synergism). Mine (monergism) is not. It all starts at this point.

I just cannot bring myself to the point of trusting in my natural ability as a fallen sinner to pray, if I were consistent in such a synergistic view as yours...

"Lord...If everybody has done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know you do not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. You give grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do.

There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Spirit given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am.

It was not your grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not - that is the difference between me and them."
​

:AMR1:

AMR

God did not create man without the ability to believe and have faith in him. What a terrible thing to believe that God creates reprobates so that he can send them to hell.

God has made a new way for fallen man to return to the Garden of Eden. Jesus said, "I am the way". Calvinism is not the way, nor is religion the way.

All who want to return to the Garden by and through Jesus Christ can now do so, if they so desire. God does not force or impose salvation on anyone, to do so would make him unjust.

If you want to return to the Garden you can do so by your own free will. "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

 

[Puppet]

The unregenerates won't know they're unregenerated

 

[Robert Pate]

The unregenerates won't know they're unregenerated

So you believe that God is devisive and tricky, so that he can send those unregenerates to hell?

 

[Nanja]

God did not create man without the ability to believe and have faith in him. What a terrible thing to believe that God creates reprobates so that he can send them to hell.

God has made a new way for fallen man to return to the Garden of Eden. Jesus said, "I am the way". Calvinism is not the way, nor is religion the way.

All who want to return to the Garden by and through Jesus Christ can now do so, if they so desire. God does not force or impose salvation on anyone, to do so would make him unjust.

If you want to return to the Garden you can do so by your own free will. "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

False teaching! :nono:


The scriptures testify:

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on his name: (v.13) Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


God's Elect Sons which He has predestinated to the Adoption of Children by Jesus Christ Eph. 1:4-5,
shall receive Him and believe on His Name because as they are born in time God shall give them
a new Spiritual nature; a New Man Col. 3:10, to equip them in the discerning of spiritual things.

1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:
neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you,
they are spirit, and they are life.

John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.


So consequently, those who are not God's chosen Sons Eph. 1:4, will never be given spiritual life,
but they will die their sins and unbelief John 8:24. Obviously they were not part of that world
which The Lamb of God came to take away the sins of John 1:29!

~~~~~

 

[beloved57]

God did not create man without the ability to believe and have faith in him. What a terrible thing to believe that God creates reprobates so that he can send them to hell.

God has made a new way for fallen man to return to the Garden of Eden. Jesus said, "I am the way". Calvinism is not the way, nor is religion the way.

All who want to return to the Garden by and through Jesus Christ can now do so, if they so desire. God does not force or impose salvation on anyone, to do so would make him unjust.

If you want to return to the Garden you can do so by your own free will. "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Invalid comments not supported by scripture!

 

[beloved57]

False teaching! :nono:


The scriptures testify:

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on his name: (v.13) Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


God's Elect Sons which He has predestinated to the Adoption of Children by Jesus Christ Eph. 1:4-5,
shall receive Him and believe on His Name because as they are born in time God shall give them
a new Spiritual nature; a New Man Col. 3:10, to equip them in the discerning of spiritual things.

1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:
neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you,
they are spirit, and they are life.

John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.


So consequently, those who are not God's chosen Sons Eph. 1:4, will never be given spiritual life,
but they will die their sins and unbelief John 8:24. Obviously they were not part of that world
which The Lamb of God came to take away the sins of John 1:29!

~~~~~

Amen to your God Honoring Post !

 

[Robert Pate]

False teaching! :nono:


The scriptures testify:

John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on his name: (v.13) Which were born, not of blood,
nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


God's Elect Sons which He has predestinated to the Adoption of Children by Jesus Christ Eph. 1:4-5,
shall receive Him and believe on His Name because as they are born in time God shall give them
a new Spiritual nature; a New Man Col. 3:10, to equip them in the discerning of spiritual things.

1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:
neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you,
they are spirit, and they are life.

John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.


So consequently, those who are not God's chosen Sons Eph. 1:4, will never be given spiritual life,
but they will die their sins and unbelief John 8:24. Obviously they were not part of that world
which The Lamb of God came to take away the sins of John 1:29!

~~~~~

Your confused.

We are born again by hearing and believing the Gospel, just like on the day of Pentecost. They heard, They believed, They received the Holy Spirit and were saved. You can read about it in Acts 2.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel.

 

[beloved57]

Your confused.

We are born again by hearing and believing the Gospel, just like on the day of Pentecost. They heard, They believed, They received the Holy Spirit and were saved. You can read about it in Acts 2.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel.

Invalid comment, one must be of God to hear Gods words John 8:47