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- Thread starter chrysostom
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Lon
Well-known member
It would support
, but have some sort of unique disposition toward martyrs, or all Christians.
There are a few different understandings of how this works but I've only seen it used by a very few, in support of reincarnation.
For Catholics, Purgatory is for many, is a preferable answer to this dilemma. I can see the reincarnation speculation coming from reading a passage as this, but more importantly, it is an encouragement regardless, that God cares and is concerned about lost souls.
I've tried to answer from a mediating position, which hard to do as a Calvinist, and honor another's hope and beliefs. For me, even if there is a future fulfillment of this prophecy, it had immediate fulfillment in my understanding as a partial preterist (because I believe it at 'least' had immediate fulfillment).
His business is saving men, so He will surely do it and do it well. "How" He does it, is debated. I do think the passage in Hebrews demands a single life, but I appreciate your efforts to reconcile mercy and grace, with a God whose business it is to save those who are lost. Because your desire is to honor Him, with your heart close to His creation, I can appreciate it, even while believe scripture appears opposed.
You are trying to logistically answer a mystery of God.
For me, I believe Hebrews gives it clearly that we will die once. I also believe our God is in the business of seeking and saving that which is lost. Luke 19:10 He either/and does this as the Calvinist believes, with pinpoint precision, or as others believe, compelling all to come, who will come.
In Our Savior Jesus Christ,
Lon
Lon
Well-known member
:nono: How else would we learn anything? Or share all things with our teachers? Or sharpen one another? Or be more noble like the Bereans than those gullible Thessalonians! I'm working on 2 Timothy 2:25 this year too. I haven't been as successful this week
(Calling all prayer-folk! 911!)Some see it clearer than others and will debate it to that degree. Hebrews does settle the issue for me.
Arsenios
Well-known member
THAT seems to me to be THE standard way that most pretend to communicate with one another here on TOL... And especially when MADists discuss matters theological... Directly answering another person's argument is rare here... And many are so angry, and grudges are held so long, that nothing ever gets anywhere...
Arsenios
Arsenios
Well-known member
The Orthodox Church has, over these last two thousand years, pretty much ironed out all Her Dogmatika, and we who are Orthodox are all pretty much of one accord with the result... Many do not investigate those kinds of issues... They simply struggle to live repentant lives... And some do not so struggle...
What we understand is that Salvation is from sin and union with God, and that depends upon our decisions and actions, because God desires that ALL should be saved, which pretty much means that we are totally responsible for our own Salvation, while being totally unable to effect it... Just the way it is... We repent, God saves...
Since becoming Orthodox, I am really stunned at the shallowness of the theological differences and debates and thinking that goes with them... From the point of view of the Orthodox Communion, Protestant Christianity does not have a clue... And this even though there are some Protestant Christians who know God well... They are the pillars who hold together what is still held together in the Protestant Churches, which are being left in astonishing numbers...
Europe has gone functionally atheist, with almost no Church attendance, Catholic or Protestant, and the spiritual hunger there is finding resonance within Islam, which is at least serious about her faith...
End Diversionary Rant!
Arsenios
Arsenios
Well-known member
i don't know who you it was asking about discussing ideas. sometimes, i forget to pay attention to the forum and ECT, religion, theology, etc. but i'm sure there places here to talk fiction with each other -
So do you always wear that blinking cap/hat?
Caphat?
We do discuss ideas here, of course... But the question is, from the Orthodox perspective, can one claim membership in an Apostolic Church and still believe in a doctrine that contradicts the dogmas of that Church...
Arsenios
Nang
TOL Subscriber
This grieves me much . . . after all this time you still hold to this burden!
The Truth is the opposite. God saves first . . sinners repent later.
Nothing about salvation from sin depends upon the sinner acting first. And God does not desire all be saved and then does not save all. What an insult to the holy will and purposes of God with which His creatures wrongly assault and contradict Him!
Salvation from sin depends and comes only from the forgiving mercies and grace of God . . . not according to any obligatory repentance on our part, but solely because He has imputed the righteousness of Jesus Christ to our accounts,, and we repent out of pure thanksgiving . . . not according to petitions to be saved, but only because we have been saved.
Arsenios
Well-known member
Wasn't that number one on your list of standard non-answers on TOL?
chrysostom said:
So perhaps you are asking not about your belief regarding reincarnation, but instead are asking about the dependence of your salvation having anything to do with ANY such belief??
I thought I did, but apparently not...
So, not knowing your belief regarding reincarnation, how can I have an opinion on its implications for your salvation? Do you understand and affirm the need for dogmatics in an Apostolic Church?
Arsenios
Arsenios
Well-known member
It is my Treasury of Joy...
Well, let's take a look at Paul's sequencing, and see if it accords with Salvation first, repentance later:
Rom 8:29-30 (some omissions)
For whom He did foreknow,
He also did predestinate..
Whom He did predestinate,
them He also called:
and whom He called,
them He also justified:
and whom He justified,
them He also glorified.
Now for Orthodox Christianity, full Salvation comes at the last stage, Glorifications, and the language we now use is Theosis, or Divinization, and it is the movement of the soul beyond thought and prayer and into God's hands entirely... It is what Paul called the ascent into the third heaven...
And in this sequencing, repentance is not mentioned at all... Because it is not speaking of man's activity of repentance... That much is assumed that God do what only God CAN do...
First God foreknows whom He will preselect - No repentance...
Then God preselects [predestinates]... Still no repentance...
Then God calls... The calling of God... This is where repentance begins, in response to the Call of God...
THEN, after being called - Dare I say called to repentance? - God Justifies, makes Righteous, the one repenting...
And then, finally, He Glorifies His Holy Ones, the Saints, whose repentance is ongoing, mature, and perfected in the Faith...
Where, in this, do you see Salvation preceding repentance?
Agreed - Repentance is the response of the sinner to God's call to repentance from sin... It is not initiated by the sinner, but is the response of the sinner to God's Call...
Of course He does... And He saves ALL who come to Him by repentance...
BYZ – 1 Tim 2:4
ος παντας ανθρωπους θελει σωθηναι
Who all men is desiring to be saved
και εις επιγνωσιν αληθειας ελθειν
And unto knowledge of Truth to come...
Your argument is with Paul, who wrote "God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of Truth."
That is the ONLY place it CAN come from... We agree...
The Ekonomia of God is such that we repent and He saves...
If we do not repent, He does not save us...
It is not that God NEEDS us to repent IN ORDER to save us... It is not that at all... But God desires our repentance and rewards us with Salvation...
In the Orthodox Faith, God JUSTIFIES the man repenting [To him who overcomes (sin)], and this means He gives him the Grace of healing from the infirmity [weakness] of his sins... To do otherwise would justify sin, you see... We stop ourselves from doing the sin, and at some point, God heals our sick desire to do it in the first place... Then comes the next sin... Or temptation... For us to overcome... And we step the path set out before us, running the race, as Paul says... Persevering to the end, that we SHALL be saved...
Salvation is an ongoing way of life in this fallen world - An amended life from sin, initiated by God and sustained by God for those who willingly and eagerly enter into a repentant life after God calls them to repentance...
Arsenios
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Lon
Well-known member
Not really, though I always thought the idea odd prior to knowing what scriptures said one way or the other. I've had other ideas scriptures have corrected. We need to be conformed to His image.
yes, I do understand and affirm the need for dogmatics
that is how you answer a question
you don't need to know my beliefs regarding reincarnation to say whether it can affect my salvation
reason and logic should tell you that
it is very simple
either
a belief in reincarnation will prevent you from being saved or not
so
which is it?
It was interesting until you got to this point, where your rhetoric descended into the typical (if less aggressively phrased) language of "we're better/you're clueless".
Well, at least we got a "some" out of you in the midst of that. So you're doing better than "some" zealots, who tend to draw the damned line just beyond their reach.
All churches are taking a hit in the secular West and most are growing elsewhere. The West is jaded. We've been waiting longer. The vitality of faith is found elsewhere.
have you ever been to one of their churches?
have you ever witnessed their liturgy or music?
tradition has saved them
Arsenios
Well-known member
Good!
So what is the dogmatikon of the Latin Churh regarding faith in reincarnation?
You got THAT right!
ABSOLOODELEY NOT...
You faith in Reincarnation will NOT prevent you from being saved...
BECAUSE...
It is a BELIEF from which...
TRALLAAAH!!!
YOU CAN REPENT!!
Arsenios
Good!
So what is the dogmatikon of the Latin Churh regarding faith in reincarnation?
You got THAT right!
ABSOLOODELEY NOT...
You faith in Reincarnation will NOT prevent you from being saved...
BECAUSE...
It is a BELIEF from which...
TRALLAAAH!!!
YOU CAN REPENT!!
Arsenios
what if I don't repent of that belief?
Arsenios
Well-known member
:up:
I can just tell you that the Protestant tradition is neo-Scholastic and is theogically centered on flipping Rome the Bird... And those who have had encounters with God live and preach an emotionally human faith of soothing sorrows and emotional support in the face of life's trials, which are ongoing... This is what I call clueless... The theological debates do not have a comprehensive approach to the issues... Each side touts its passages which the other side ignores, and vice versa... And the arguments devolve into mud-sliinging wherever they are had...
ALL of which is clueless...
The Faith of Christ which He gave to His Apostles to found in the world in His Apostolic Churches is WAY better than that... Light years... And the Center of the Apostolic Faith is the Eastern Orthodox Communion, with the Oriental Orthodox Churches to the East, and Latin Rome to the West...
All from the Beginnings...
All Apostolic...
The Protestant Reformation is Latin Rome's illegitimate Child born out of wedlock from the adulterous Scholasticism of Her apostatic authoritarian vanity of dominion over Christ's Body on earth...
Arsenios
Arsenios
Well-known member
Are you 5?
I mean, that seemed like a very childish response...
I will pray for you...
THAT is the Orthodox Catholic Way of Christ...
You missed, btw, answering the RCC's dogmatic teachings on reincarnation...
There are very few unrepentable sins, btw...
Suicide being the most obvious...
Arsenios
Who is ALWAYS 5...
answer the question
I am as old as you
the church says there is only one life
see how I answer questions
and I see how you do
I see how you avoid them
why?
are you not sure of yourself?