ECT Who is "We" in Heb 12:22+?

[Interplanner]

Reiteration...

Great list STP but not great thinking.

They are the believers. The same things could be said for believers from any nationality.

To illustrate on 'not receiving the promise': the nation did get to Judea and lived there several hundred years before devastating judgments. They did NOT receive the promise. The same people (in Heb 11) who DID receive the promise did so because Christ came, not because of some future event.

That's what I mean that you are not thinking, or not thinking clearly.

There are many contexts in these verses, many historical references. The idea that they mean one thing or 'your' thing is therefore kind of foolish. You don't seem to explain yourself only because you don't want to explain yourself.

God and the Gospel are in the details; the devil is in generalizing about these things and just saying they have a blanket endorsement of a future kingdom of Israel.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Great list STP but not great thinking.

They are the believers. The same things could be said for believers from any nationality.

To illustrate on 'not receiving the promise': the nation did get to Judea and lived there several hundred years before devastating judgments. They did NOT receive the promise. The same people (in Heb 11) who DID receive the promise did so because Christ came, not because of some future event.

That's what I mean that you are not thinking, or not thinking clearly.

If this is to you, explain why you don't have the promise yet.


Hebrews
10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

 

[Interplanner]

If this is to you, explain why you don't have the promise yet.


Hebrews
10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

We do; it is the resurrection of Christ, the proof of justification, Acts 13, Rom 4. Our own resurrection to the world to come of course does not come until death.

"Only along with us would they (OT believers) be 'made perfect'" Heb 11's end. That is the Promise they awaited, not the land for the race of Israel, as the chapter makes clear.

You are un-reading Heb 7-12.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

We do; it is the resurrection of Christ, the proof of justification, Acts 13, Rom 4. Our own resurrection to the world to come of course does not come until death.

"Only along with us would they (OT believers) be 'made perfect'" Heb 11's end. That is the Promise they awaited, not the land for the race of Israel, as the chapter makes clear.

You are un-reading Heb 7-12.

Hebrews
10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

 

[Interplanner]

Hebrews
10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Yes, that generation needed to follow and preach Christ in the most hostile situation to date. That "You" is that generation of believers in Israel, especially difficult dealing with those who thought the race saved them.

As for the salvation from sin itself, we (now) share in that; but that generation had unique issues if you believed the same one Gospel, with Judaizers snarling at you.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Yes, that generation needed to follow and preach Christ in the most hostile situation to date. That "You" is that generation of believers in Israel, especially difficult dealing with those who thought the race saved them.

As for the salvation from sin itself, we (now) share in that; but that generation had unique issues if you believed the same one Gospel, with Judaizers snarling at you.

This verse doesn't apply to you?

 

[Interplanner]

I have been threatened, yes, but not exactly as they were about fighting for the independence of Israel, which they considered a messianic struggle. To get close, I would have to be over in Israel today, probably dealing with Hasidim.

I'm not saying I'm part of the "us" who received this, but that that generation received all the blessing of the sacrifice of Christ which was what all previous generations of believers were waiting for. (That's believers, not all of Israel.) It never was the land/race/state as such. But as we can see from 2:9, what took place in Christ is the same thing, the one Gospel, preached all through the NT, so yes, I have enjoyed receiving that same thing.

The application to today would be that the race/state/land people persecute, bannish, embarrass, belittle those who do not believe that that is what it is all about. That doctrine came about in the 1800s when a few guys decided the Bible did not make sense until them, and explained how to make sense out of it. They didn't seem to know they were rehashing the mistakes of Judaism. Fools rush in! Ignoring 200 years of Reformation teachers, and a few before them, in the 'middle' years of church history.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I have been threatened, yes, but not exactly as they were about fighting for the independence of Israel, which they considered a messianic struggle. To get close, I would have to be over in Israel today, probably dealing with Hasidim.

I'm not saying I'm part of the "us" who received this, but that that generation received all the blessing of the sacrifice of Christ which was what all previous generations of believers were waiting for. (That's believers, not all of Israel.) It never was the land/race/state as such. But as we can see from 2:9, what took place in Christ is the same thing, the one Gospel, preached all through the NT, so yes, I have enjoyed receiving that same thing.

The application to today would be that the race/state/land people persecute, bannish, embarrass, belittle those who do not believe that that is what it is all about. That doctrine came about in the 1800s when a few guys decided the Bible did not make sense until them, and explained how to make sense out of it. They didn't seem to know they were rehashing the mistakes of Judaism. Fools rush in! Ignoring 200 years of Reformation teachers, and a few before them, in the 'middle' years of church history.

Huh?

After ye have done the will of God, ye may receive the promise.

What exactly did you do in order to receive it?

 

[Interplanner]

Huh?

After ye have done the will of God, ye may receive the promise.

What exactly did you do in order to receive it?

Since the promise is the gift of eternal life through the one gospel, I believed on Christ's sacrifice and entered God's rest.

How is it you read 2:9 and not realize it is the one and same Gospel? That's the question you should be asking yourself.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Since the promise is the gift of eternal life through the one gospel, I believed on Christ's sacrifice and entered God's rest.

How is it you read 2:9 and not realize it is the one and same Gospel? That's the question you should be asking yourself.

What labour did you do to enter into that rest?

 

[patrick jane]

What labour did you do to enter into that rest?

We both labour and suffer reproach.

 

[musterion]

[h=2]Who is "We" in Heb 12:22+?[/h]

Jews. The book is called Hebrews for a reason.

It really isn't that hard when you first decide you'll believe it as is.

Like Luke 19:44, which you hate.

 

[Interplanner]

Jews. The book is called Hebrews for a reason.

It really isn't that hard when you first decide you'll believe it as is.

Like Luke 19:44, which you hate.

As the book says, it is actually the believing Jews in their particular dilemma in the mid 1st century. What we do share with them is the same salvation, just not in the same climate of hostility with Judaism in the background. there is one Gospel. that is why the book regularly distinguishes between those who have shrunk back to unbelief, or are re-crucifying Christ, vs those who believe and take the life-risks of faith right then, up to and including being sawn in two.

as for 19:44 (and many other things) you have no idea what you are saying. You don't know what it means and you don't know what I hate. Nearly every day when I am on TOL I have mentioned it as one of the string of several Lukan references to the destruction of the place in that generation, locked in time by 23:28+, Luke being mostly transcript of Paul's oral recitation of the account.

He did not weep about something X000 years in the future. he wept about what was happening just as in ch 23.

You are emotionally incoherent if you can't see that, besides your serious biblical theology misunderstandings. I do not accept an emotionally incoherent Jesus. When he stood at Lazarus tomb, he wept. He did not weep right then for people dying 1000 years earlier or X000 years in the future.

 

[Interplanner]

We both labour and suffer reproach.

British spelling now for some reason?

We are not in the climate of hostility from Judaism, no. But there are similar ones, and they are hostile to the same Gospel.