ECT Who is "We" in Heb 12:22+?

I

Interplanner

Well-known member
The race or those who believe the Gospel?

There should be some clues in ch 11!

Kinda bugs you when the title of a letter was always directed to some other group than you thought...
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Hebrews
11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:


Hebrews
3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


Hebrews
4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief


Hebrews
6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.


Hebrews
10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


Hebrews
10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.


Hebrews
11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Hebrews
12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?



All looking forward to the 2nd coming for the atonement and resurrection, being made perfect.
Members of the Body of Christ are already forgiven and risen with Christ. We are simply waiting to be changed.

Hebrews is not written to you.
 
D

DAN P

Well-known member
Jerry Shugart said:
The book of Hebrews was written during the dispensation of the grace of God. If the doctrine found in that book is not in force during the present dispensation then when will it be in effect?
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Hi , Jerry and NOT written to Gentiles !!


Are we looking for a heavenly Jerusalem OR SITED in the Heavenlies !!


Verse 22-24 speak of FUTURE things about the NEW COVENANT :

#1 Mount Zion

#2 , The city of the living God

#3, The heavenly Jerusalem

#4 , and innumerable company of angels

#5, the general assembly

#6, the assembly of the first born registered in heaven

#7 the God the judge of all

#8, to the spirits of just men made perfect

#9 to Jesus the MEDIATOR of the NEW COVENANT

Hebrews is written to Israel !!

dan p
 
Jerry Shugart

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
DAN P said:
Hebrews is written to Israel !!
Click to expand...

It was written to those with the heavenly calling:

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" (Heb.3:1).

We read this:

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh" (Heb.10:19-20).​

And this:

"Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need" (Heb.4:16).​

Paul Sadler, past President of the Berean Bible Society, had this to say:

"But now, through the blood of Christ, God dwells in our midst, thus, we can 'come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need' (Heb. 4:16). It is a solemn thought indeed that every believer in Christ dwells in the very presence of God" [emphasis added] (Sadler, Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians [Stephens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1999], 66).​
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
SaulToPaul said:
Hebrews
11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:


Hebrews
3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


Hebrews
4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief


Hebrews
6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.


Hebrews
10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


Hebrews
10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.


Hebrews
11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Hebrews
12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?



All looking forward to the 2nd coming for the atonement and resurrection, being made perfect.
Members of the Body of Christ are already forgiven and risen with Christ. We are simply waiting to be changed.

Hebrews is not written to you.
Click to expand...





Your technique is just crap, STP.

Do you know anything going on historically in that generation about Hebrews--whether race OR believer? the mid 1st century? the friction with Judaism that you guys never define?

Why is it you did not deal with 12:22+

Look for one at the end of 11 where they in the past all waited until the justification from sins that came in Christ (that's 'being made perfect' in neo-Levitical-Hebrews-speak).

You'll do ANYTHING not to see the new covenant in action and blessing people now.

Every bit was written to ALL BELIEVERS because the kinds of things that happened to those believers could happen again, and because of the beauty of the Gospel event which bless all who have faith now.
 
D

Danoh

New member
Interplanner said:
Your technique is just crap, STP.

Do you know anything going on historically in that generation about Hebrews--whether race OR believer? the mid 1st century? the friction with Judaism that you guys never define?

Why is it you did not deal with 12:22+

Look for one at the end of 11 where they in the past all waited until the justification from sins that came in Christ (that's 'being made perfect' in neo-Levitical-Hebrews-speak).

You'll do ANYTHING not to see the new covenant in action and blessing people now.

Every bit was written to ALL BELIEVERS because the kinds of things that happened to those believers could happen again, and because of the beauty of the Gospel event which bless all who have faith now.
Click to expand...

I don't see eye to eye with STP on one thing or another myself.

But your one proof text in contrast to STP's much of the very chapter you asserted contains clues to who said "we" is referring to is the actual fail.

As with turbo's post to me elsewhere: when I posted passages to him showing that water baptism was not some "New Testament" (Matt.- John) phenomena.

Once more he proved his approach is off.

Turbo concluded a cherry pick, on my part.

His projection of what has actually been a continuous one on his part.

When the passages I posted to him made clear a governing principle one can go by in attempting to study that issue out.

You asserted as much to STP just now - by your generic Hebrews 11 suggestion, only to then spit on his having done exactly what you suggested.

You would do well to remove your obvious personal animosity towards the man himself.

Only then can your assertions about his approach hope to end up a bit more objective.

Whether or not he and or his pals return the favor.

For there is ever Romans 5: 6-8 in each our stead as a focus that is ever reliable where being able to see another clearly is concerned - as the Lord sees one and all, in light of His Son.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Danoh said:
I don't see eye to eye with STP on one thing or another myself.

But your one proof text in contrast to STP's much of the very chapter you asserted contains clues to who said "we" is referring to is the actual fail.

As with turbo's post to me elsewhere: when I posted passages to him showing that water baptism was not some "New Testament" (Matt.- John) phenomena.

Once more he proved his approach is off.

Turbo concluded a cherry pick, on my part.

His projection of what has actually been a continuous one on his part.

When the passages I posted to him made clear a governing principle one can go by in attempting to study that issue out.

You asserted as much to STP just now - by your generic Hebrews 11 suggestion, only to then spit on his having done exactly what you suggested.

You would do well to remove your obvious personal animosity towards the man himself.

Only then can your assertions about his approach hope to end up a bit more objective.

Whether or not he and or his pals return the favor.

For there is ever Romans 5: 6-8 in each our stead as a focus that is ever reliable where being able to see another clearly is concerned - as the Lord sees one and all, in light of His Son.
Click to expand...

Thou hast well said.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Based on STP's previously "inspired" partitioning of heaven, Heb 12 is wrong, or else he is. Heb 12 has his favorite groups in the wrong places, according to STP, which is done because D'ism was said to be 'needed to make sense of the Bible' (except for all the people before D'ism who thought it already made sense!: Luther, Calvin, Knox, Farrel, Zwingli, Melancthon).
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
Based on STP's previously "inspired" partitioning of heaven, Heb 12 is wrong, or else he is. Heb 12 has his favorite groups in the wrong places, according to STP, which is done because D'ism was said to be 'needed to make sense of the Bible' (except for all the people before D'ism who thought it already made sense!: Luther, Calvin, Knox, Farrel, Zwingli, Melancthon).
Click to expand...

IPTV: Fake New Network.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
The people who did not receive the promises were IN THE LAND. So...it wasn't the land that was the promise! That is what the passage means.

Look at it carefully because it looks like (I agree) that it meant some delayed fulfillment. But that's what happens to Heb 11 and Rom 11 when you really really want something else to be true that is not there. You don't see what's there.

That's why a future land promise or protection doesn't show up as a dichotomized separate reality in the NT that "needs" D'ism to come along and make sense of it. The NT already makes sense! The mission of Christ already makes sense of the Bible. Entirely without D'ism and a future in the land and God protecting Israel from enemies etc.

I'm ticked at STP for his dishonesty about grammatical stuff that doesn't agree with D'ism, which is so clearly a fraud. He'll do anything to avoid the grammar or avoid the conclusion or avoid true literal treatment--all the while claiming to 'just believe the bible.'

And what is the utter stupidity of 'repenting about not believing in protecting Israel?' Do you have any idea what is going on to our culture? The war on genders? the fake news? Judges who write that calling a person a rapist (when they are) is hate speech? And you think 'repentance' means to believe Israel is going to be protected? What sort of moral chaos are you trying to promote--or are you the other 'head' of this Hydra?
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
The people who did not receive the promises were IN THE LAND. So...it wasn't the land that was the promise! That is what the passage means.

Look at it carefully because it looks like (I agree) that it meant some delayed fulfillment. But that's what happens to Heb 11 and Rom 11 when you really really want something else to be true that is not there. You don't see what's there.

That's why a future land promise or protection doesn't show up as a dichotomized separate reality in the NT that "needs" D'ism to come along and make sense of it. The NT already makes sense! The mission of Christ already makes sense of the Bible. Entirely without D'ism and a future in the land and God protecting Israel from enemies etc.

I'm ticked at STP for his dishonesty about grammatical stuff that doesn't agree with D'ism, which is so clearly a fraud. He'll do anything to avoid the grammar or avoid the conclusion or avoid true literal treatment--all the while claiming to 'just believe the bible.'

And what is the utter stupidity of 'repenting about not believing in protecting Israel?' Do you have any idea what is going on to our culture? The war on genders? the fake news? Judges who write that calling a person a rapist (when they are) is hate speech? And you think 'repentance' means to believe Israel is going to be protected? What sort of moral chaos are you trying to promote--or are you the other 'head' of this Hydra?
Click to expand...

More fake news...
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Pardon me but the descendants of Abraham were in the geography we call Judea. But that was not the promise! That is why they did not recieve:

'These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better [THE GOSPEL IS BETTER THAN GETTING THE LAND OF ISRAEL!!!] for us, so that only together with us would they be made perfect [justification from sins].'

Fake theology like yours ignores the 'only' there, and says it is not literally in the Bible to say this is 'only' how the Promise was fulfilled.

Even the time frame clarifies things: it didn't happen in the ancient past, it won't happen in the X000 year future! IT IS NOW, IN CHRIST!!!
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Interplanner said:
Pardon me but the descendants of Abraham were in the geography we call Judea. But that was not the promise! That is why they did not recieve:

'These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better [THE GOSPEL IS BETTER THAN GETTING THE LAND OF ISRAEL!!!] for us, so that only together with us would they be made perfect [justification from sins].'

Fake theology like yours ignores the 'only' there, and says it is not literally in the Bible to say this is 'only' how the Promise was fulfilled.

Even the time frame clarifies things: it didn't happen in the ancient past, it won't happen in the X000 year future! IT IS NOW, IN CHRIST!!!
Click to expand...

:chuckle:
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
ONLY along with us were the ancient believers 'made perfect.' That is the fulfillment of the ages of everything in the past, just like Acts 13 is saying in unison.
 
SaulToPaul 2

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
SaulToPaul said:
Hebrews
11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:


Hebrews
3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


Hebrews
4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief


Hebrews
6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.


Hebrews
10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


Hebrews
10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.


Hebrews
11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Hebrews
12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?



All looking forward to the 2nd coming for the atonement and resurrection, being made perfect.
Members of the Body of Christ are already forgiven and risen with Christ. We are simply waiting to be changed.

Hebrews is not written to you.
Click to expand...

Reiteration...
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
SaulToPaul said:
Reiteration...
Click to expand...





Great list STP but not great thinking.

They are the believers. The same things could be said for believers from any nationality.

To illustrate on 'not receiving the promise': the nation did get to Judea and lived there several hundred years before devastating judgments. They did NOT receive the promise. The same people (in Heb 11) who DID receive the promise did so because Christ came, not because of some future event.

That's what I mean that you are not thinking, or not thinking clearly.
 
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