In fact, it shows exactly that.
ECT WHO HAS AUTHORITY TO APPOINT ELDERS ?
- Thread starter DAN P
- Start date
Cruciform
New member
Post your proof for your claim that "many of the CC's traditions are not from Jesus."
Got that list of traditions Paul was referring to in his letter to the Ephesians yet? Nope? Didn't think so. There is a big red flag. Now, actually answer Dan P's post and point to where Jesus taught those things to His Apostles. If you can't yet again you will have proven that the RCC cannot support its doctrines from scripture. To which you will reply that you don't need scripture because you have non-scriptural traditions and the non-scriptural Catechism that you consider to both be fully equivalent to scripture to back up your claims. If that doesn't make your head hurt then you are probably Catholic.
Not having time to respectfully respond to the balance of your appreciated post, I do wish to expound on your point that it is God who appoints Disciples. Believers (Matthew 13:15 KJV, John 8:30 KJV) are led into the status of Disciple (Matthew 13:16 KJV, John 8:31 KJV) by the Holy Spirit of Truth (John 14:16 KJV, John 14:17 KJV, John 8:32 KJV). Jesus offered His door for His believers (John 8:30 KJV, contrasted with the 12 at that moment) to “know the truth (of Jesus’ Divine Paternity, John 8:18 KJV), and the truth will make you free” (John 8:32 KJV) from any doubt whatsoever, and there are other aspects of said ‘freedom’. Said “truth” “converted” (Matthew 13:15 KJV) His believers (John 8:30 KJV) into Jesus’ disciples (John 8:31 KJV). All being said, Disciples of Jesus, beyond the twelve, existed before Pentecost.
Although the twelve were present during Jesus’ dialogue with those non-Israelites (John 8:33 KJV, Romans 9:6, 7) plotting His crucifixion (John 8:37 KJV, John 11:48, 49, 50), the twelve (not fluent in the OT) did not fully discern Jesus’ spoken words (Matthew 13:10, Matthew 13:11 KJV). Jesus’ words most notably undiscerned by the twelve were the succinct and explicit testimonies of Jesus and His Father (John 8:18) found in John 8:38 KJV and John 8:40 KJV respectively, requiring keen fluency in the OT that Stephen, Paul, and Paul’s disciple Ananias (Act 9:10, 11, 12) had. Jesus’ twelve were ‘fishermen/carpenter’ vegan types from the beginning, and Paul was a carnivore. Nonetheless, there were those believers (John 8:30 KJV), who WERE likewise OT fluent, comprehending the “truth”, captured in Jesus’ entire dialogue (between John 8:12-47). Those believers became His illuminated disciples (contrasted with the twelve at that time) during that specific encounter in John 8:12-47.
Jesus’ twelve pre-resurrection ‘vegan-type’ disciples ‘heard and saw’ (Matthew 13:16 KJV) while walking with Jesus, but please take note His twelve being “converted” and “healed” (Matthew 13:15 KJV), to fully “understand with their heart” “the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 13:11 KJV), began during Jesus’ post-resurrection ministry, here: John 20:21 KJV, John 20:22 KJV. Prior thereto, Jesus’ 12 disciples were irrefutably absent the Holy Spirit of Truth (John 14:16 KJV, John 14:17 KJV) while Jesus was in His pre-resurrected flesh (John 16:7 KJV). And, I contend there were other disciples of Jesus’, keenly fluent in the OT, before John 14:16 KJV, John 14:17 KJV. Even John the Baptist was “filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb” (Luke 1:15 KJV).
Keeping this notion of post-resurrection ‘pending illumination’ in mind, Jesus’ twelve disciples did not always discern the depth of Jesus’ words, they even asked Jesus to unveil parables (Matthew 13:36 KJV). Likewise, Jesus’ dialogue, primarily with His non-Israelite detractors (John 8:33 KJV, Romans 9:6, 7) in John 8, is a case in point: The succinct and explicit testimonies (John 8:38 KJV, Spirit of Elijah NT; and John 8:40 KJV, Spirit of Moses OT) of these two witnesses (John 8:18) to Jesus’ divine Paternity (John 8:12 KJV, John 8:13 KJV, John 8:19 KJV) even escapes the multitudes of His believers, today (Matthew 22:14 KJV). Said lack of Scripturally discerned divine illumination to Jesus’ Paternity, converting believers into Disciples of Jesus, fulfills Isaiah 6:9, 10, 11, 12, as Jesus referenced in Matthew 13:15 KJV. Between Matthew 13:10 KJV (King James Version, particularly) and Matthew 13:17 KJV, Jesus discerned disciples (Matthew 13:11 KJV, Matthew 13:16 KJV) from believers (Matthew 13:15 KJV, Matthew 13:17 KJV). I suggest the grand illumination to Jesus’ divine Paternity will not occur until Matthew 24:29 KJV, Matthew 24:30 KJV.
His twelve disciples ‘saw and heard’ (Matthew 13:16 KJV), but while Jesus walked in pre-resurrection flesh, His disciples did not “understand with their heart.” The succinct and explicit testimonies (John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV) to the “truth” (John 8:32 KJV) of Jesus’ divinity (John 8:12 KJV, John 8:13 KJV, John 8:19 KJV), converting believers (John 8:30 KJV) into Jesus’ disciples (John 8:31 KJV) remains elusive. Therefore, a disciple of Jesus currently can or will be one who has succinctly, explicitly, and utterly discerned John 8:38 KJV, and John 8:40 KJV. I suggest Jesus’ ‘divine Paternal truth’ is encapsulated within the entirety God’s Holy Word, the Books of Moses included, but the Holy Spirit of Truth ONLY can connect the dots illuminating the truth of Jesus’ Divine Paternity.
Cruciform implies Peter received “good” “theological education” knowledge while Peter was with Jesus even BEFORE His resurrection:
Post #78, page 6:
There is no Scriptural corroboration for Cruci’s statement that Peter was “taught the Torah” “three solid years, morning and night” maintaining Peter’s “theological education was quite good” that “Peter was fully qualified to guide and teach…” Cruci is simply attempting to elevate Peter to the status beyond Jesus’ other disciples. Jesus asked Peter, “So when they had dined, Jesus saith unto Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these?” (John 20:15 KJV). I suggest Jesus was asking Peter if Peter loved Jesus more than Peter loved notoriety among His disciples, even. And, I suggest Peter’s love of notoriety was exemplified at Pentecost.
Evidently, Peter was NOT standing and speaking the Gospel in multilingual tongues (Acts 2:8 KJV) at Pentecost (Acts 2:14 KJV). Wasn’t Peter instructed to feed Jesus’ lambs/sheep? Did Peter deny the Holy Spirit at Pentecost? Did Peter deny Jesus’ instruction to feed His lambs/sheep?
The intended audience at Pentecost “were dwelling at Jerusalem, devout men, out of every nation under heaven” (Acts 2:5 KJV), and they were itemized in Acts 2:9, 10, 11. AFTER the fact (Acts 2:13 KJV), Peter began speaking to the mockers (Acts 2:13 KJV), who were clearly NOT the intended beneficiaries of Pentecost “ (Acts 2:5 KJV, Acts 2:8 KJV), as Peter addressed “Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem…” (Acts 2:14 KJV). With all due respect, Peter, in his love of notoriety, didn’t know a sheep from shinola (John 8:33 KJV, Romans 9:6, 7, Revelation 2:9, 3:9) early in his ministry: Acts 4:13 KJV, Acts 4:20 KJV. Unlike Stephen, that lack of divine OT illumination likely saved Peter’s life to be an evangelist among the mocking, unintended beneficiaries of Pentecost.
It’s clear to me Peter’s ‘one historic church’ consisted of those who were NOT the intended beneficiaries of the illuminated Gospel at Pentecost.
Post #92, page 7:
Truth is greater than the sum of all knowledge (Matthew 13:12 KJV). From what I’m hearing from Cruciform, he contradicts the position Pope Francis made (also absent crucial ‘understanding’) on 20 February 2014:
Pope Francis then noted how, in the course of the 40 days following the Lord’s Resurrection, Peter “heard many explanations from Jesus on the kingdom of God. And he may have been tempted to think: Ah, now I know who Jesus Christ is!”. Yet he still “lacked so much in terms of knowing who Jesus is”.
https://w2.vatican.va/content/franc...papa-francesco-cotidie_20140220_who-i-am.html
https://w2.vatican.va/content/franc...papa-francesco-cotidie_20140220_who-i-am.html
So much for Cruci’s notion Peter was “taught the Torah” for “three solid years.” The Pope seemed to think Peter was instructed for “40 days following the Lord’s Resurrection”, “Yet he (Peter) still ‘lacked so much in terms of knowing who Jesus is’”. Nonetheless, neither the Pope, nor Cruci, can succinctly and explicitly unveil the two divine testimonies of John 8:38 KJV, and John 8:40 KJV to Jesus’ divine Paternity. So much for the Catholic Church designating Disciples of Jesus, the Pope included.
So, the way I read John 8:32 KJV as Jesus was responding to His believers (John 8:30 KJV)(King James Version, particularly):
John 8:32 KJV “Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word (keep listening to the following), then are ye my disciples indeed.”
Becoming a Disciple of Jesus involved an “IF/THEN” condition (John 8:31 KJV). And, those following verses included His (John 8:38 KJV) and His Father’s (John 8:40 KJV) testimonies (John 8:18 KJV) to Jesus’ divine Paternity (John 8:12 KJV, John 8:13 KJV, John 8:19 KJV).
The crux of the question about appointing elders is, RO… who on this thread can succinctly and explicitly reveal that which Jesus SAW WITH His Father (John 8:38 KJV) as Jesus’ testimony, or succinctly and explicitly explain that which Jesus HEARD FROM His father (John 8:40 KJV) as God’s testimony that even Abraham never heard from God. Where are Jesus’ Disciples, RO? That is, unless someone, Cruciform most specifically, can render up the succinct and explicit testimonies. And, I’m not asking for generalities.
kayaker
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So that would be a no for you. Thanks for once again proving the short comings of the RCC.
Cruciform
New member
Straw Man Fallacy. Back to Post #105 above.
Hi , and IF you had bibical proof fot Purgatory , Pope , and proof that Mary ascened to heaven or that there are CHRISTAINOS in the gospels , please present it , IF YOU CAN ??:rotfl::rotfl:
But we know that you never will , don't you see !!
DAN P
Cruciform
New member
Purgatory
Papacy
Mary's Bodily Ascension
Oops! Wrong again. (See above.) :doh:
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
Hi and OOPS , again , NO scripture verses , OOPS !!
Another MOOT reply and you say ,you do not need scripture ??
dan p
Cruciform
New member
Good grief. Simply CLICK ON the blue words in Post #109, and you will be supplied with plenty of Scripture verses. Try again. :doh:
Hi , and they have no Greek word for Purgatory , POPE and neither is in the bible , sooooo pleaseeeeeee explain !!
dan p
Cruciform
New member
Now post a biblical text which states that "Only words that specifically appear in the Bible may be used by Christians to express their beliefs."
exactly ! - I agree Dan P - good thread/post -
Hi , and can do this all day with one hand TIED behind my back !!
They study Latin and no nothing about Greek and the Pentecostals are just as BAD !!
They have to all say the same thing or it will be a bigger mess than they have now and part of my family were CC and Pentecostals years ago !!
dan p
Cruciform
New member
I studied Greek in college, and have never formally studied Latin. Congratulations on yet another utterly false assumption.
:doh:
("...NO nothing..."? Maybe you should concentrate on English.)
Still waiting for the info requested in Post #113 above...
Cruciform
New member
Answered in Post #113 above.
Cruciform
New member
You failed to actually answer the question in Post #113 above. Try again.