Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
I would also be interested in any biblical support for such a belief. This is dangerously close to Mormon beliefs.
Who died on the cross? - a Hall of Fame thread.
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
- Start date
- Status
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
If you drew that conclusion from what I wrote, then I was very unclear in my words. We say that Christ willingly humbled Himself and became a bondservant:
First, He put aside His divine majesty (Isaiah 53:1-3; John 17:5) and assumed humanity in the form of a servant, the Son of Man (Isaiah 42:1; Matthew 3:15; John 4:34; John 15:15; John 5:19; Romans 5:19).
Second, Christ became subject to the law’s demands and curses (legally responsible for our sins and liable to the curse of law); His life became obedient in actions and suffering to the limits of a shameful death. This state of Christ is seen described in Galatians 4:4.
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]-->By yielding Himself to God the Father, giving up His independent use of His divine powers, I mean this was a change of role and status from the perspective of the economy of the Godhead, not a change essential attributes or nature. By 'economy of the Godhead, I mean a distinguishing of the manner of operation and the manner of working within the Godhead. We distinguish between the Persons of the Trinity by their roles and their means of working. But, we should never assume that there are three distinctly different wills in operation. God is one essence, with three subsistences, and there is only a single will of God.
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]-->
Uh... John 1:14 is a verse from the Bible (God's word) how can you accuse that as being a "Mormon belief"
Oh I get it. :doh: Anything you disagree with you try to marginalize by calling it "mormon" or "Jehovah Witness" etc. Good strategy AMR, if ya can't beat 'em... marginalize 'em! :up:
Newman
New member
Ok. I guess the "argument" has boiled down to how many "natures" Jesus had/has, if they can be separated, and where Jesus (and his nature(s)) was/were when his body was lying in the tomb. Right?
I'm pretty sure we're on the same page.
Well let me tell y'all what I think...
Jesus has one identity. God became man.
Because God was man, he looked and acted like he had a divine aspect and a human aspect. I won't call them natures, I guess, because he only had one nature, and that nature was/is the love of God.
Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. He led a sinless life.
When Jesus died, he became sin, and became separated from both the Father and his body (because that's what death is).
On the third day, he became reunited with his body (thus overcoming death) and reunited with the Father. I don't know what happened at the ascension. Where did his body go?
Are there any disagreements with what I said?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Eph 4:10 KJV.
Evoken
New member
Uh... John 1:14 is a verse from the Bible (God's word) how can you accuse that as being a "Mormon belief"
Oh I get it. :doh: Anything you disagree with you try to marginalize by calling it "mormon" or "Jehovah Witness" etc. Good strategy AMR, if ya can't beat 'em... marginalize 'em! :up:
PastorKevin asked: "Can you point us to where in that verse it says He had His human body BEFORE the incarnation?"
AMR is not rejecting the verse from John but said that there is no Scriptural support for what PK asked. What is close to Mormonism is that God has a body (Christ had a body before the incarnation).
Evo
Newman
New member
Sozo
New member
Yes, but I don't know why.
Ahh... my bad.
Thats what I get for trying to work and post at the same time. :doh:
My apologies to AMR.
Sozo
New member
You're still batting .999 :chuckle:
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
On the Humanity of Christ
On the Humanity of Christ
Here are the verses that speak to His humanity:
<o></o>From the OT:
1. He will come through the woman’s, i.e., Eve’s, seed (Gen. 3:15).
2. He is a prophet like unto Moses (Dt. 18:18);
3. a lineal descent of Abraham (Gen. 12:3; 22:18; cf. Acts 3:25; Heb. 2:16) and David (2 Sam. 7:12; cf. Lk. 1:32; Rom. 1:3);
4. who will be born of a virgin (Isa. 7:14) in <st1:city u1:st="on"><st1>Bethlehem</st1> (Mic. 5:2);
5. He is a man of sorrows (Isa. 53:3);
6. a servant of Jehovah (Isa. 42:1);
7. who will be forsaken by God (Ps. 22:1);
8. cut off from the land of the living (Isa. 53:8, 12);
9. and placed in a tomb (Isa. 53:9);
10. the Messiah will arise from the dead (Ps. 16:8-11) and
11. be exalted and seated at God’s right hand (Ps. 68:18);
12. had clothes that would be gambled over (Ps. 22:18);
13. real bones that could be broken (Ps. 34:20; 22:14, 17); and
14. could experience real human anguish and pain (Ps. 22:1, 2, 14-17);
15. had hands and feet that could be pierced (Ps. 22:16).
The apostles used the term "flesh" (sarx) in order to be very clear about the genuine humanity of the Messiah. The term "flesh" is often used in the OT to describe the whole man (e.g., Lev. 27:11; Deut. 12:15). In John the term "flesh" is used as a term to represent all that man is (Jn. 27:2). It is likely that the most important reason that the term "flesh" is used in Scripture is that the word often denotes the weakness and mortality of humans (e.g., Ps. 56:4; 78:39; Isa. 40:6-8). The Logos not only assumed a human nature, but a human nature that was liable to all the infirmities after the fall.
In John 8:40 Christ said to the Pharisees, “you seek to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth”.
Peter referred to Jesus as “a man attested to you by God” (Acts 2:22).
The author of Hebrews writes:
Heb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
Paul contrasted the first and second Adam in Romans chapter 5. There Paul refers to Christ as a man three separate occasions (Romans 5:15, 17, 19). When Paul discusses the resurrection of the body in 1 Corinthians 15, he refers to the man, the last Adam, in verses 21 and 47. Paul’s entire argument with respect to the resurrection presupposes that Christ was truly a man with a natural human body just like us (see 1 Cor. 15:44).
Paul in 1 Timothy 2:5 teaches there is only “there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
Christ's own self-designation was the title "the Son of Man" (Matthew 9:6; 11:19; 12:8, 32; 13:37, 41; 16:13, 16, 27, 28; 18:11; 19:28; 20:18 24:27, 30, 37, 44; 25:13, 31; 26:2, 24, 45, 64, etc.). The Messianic title points to His essential humanity.
The NT teaches Christ possessed the essential elements of human nature:
1. He exhibited real human growth both with regard to His body and soul- "He increased in wisdom and stature" (Luke 2:52);
2. "the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom" (Luke 2:40).
3. "that He learned obedience by the things which He suffered" (Hebrews 5:8);
4. that the captain of our salvation was made "perfect through sufferings" (Hebrews 2:10);
5. He grew weary on a journey (Jn. 4:6);
6. He was weakened by torture, beating, etc., from the Romans and needed some one to carry the cross (Matthew 27:32; Mk. 15:21);
7. while on the cross He became very thirsty (Jn. 19:28; Mt. 27:47);
8. in <st1><st1>Gethsemane</st1></st1> Christ was in such agony that His sweat became like great drops of blood (Lk. 22:44);
9. when fasting in the wilderness He became hungry (Matthew 4:2; cf. Matthew 21:18);
10. we became tired and needed sleep just like other men (Matthew 8:24).
11. Christ bled and died in a real human body (Lk. 23:46; Matthew 27:50; Jn. 19:30, 34);
12. after the resurrection Christ instructed the disciples to touch His body and see that "a Spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have" (Lk. 24:39);
13. Thomas was even told to place his finger in the holes in His side (Jn. 20:27-28);
14. post resurrection, the body of Christ ate boiled fish and honey in the presence of the disciples (Lk. 24:39); and
15. after His death, His dead physical body was turned over to Joseph of Arimathea for burial (Matthew 27:57-61).
Christ also possessed a human soul and exhibited the entire range of human emotions:
1. When witnessing the hypocrisy and legalism of the Pharisees He was grieved and looked at them with anger (Mk. 3:5);
2. when He witnessed merchants in the temple He </st1:city>became angry and drove them from of the temple with whips, overturning their tables and pouring out their money (Jn. 2:15-17);
3. when Christ saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion (Matthew 9:36);
4. He loved the rich young ruler (Mk. 9:21);
5. when Jesus observed Jews weeping at the death of Lazarus, “He groaned in the spirit and was troubled” (Jn. 11:33) and even wept Himself (Jn. 11:35);
6. contemplating His impending suffering on Golgotha He prayed “Now My soul is troubled” (Jn. 12:27);
7. before praying, He said to the disciples “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful” (Matthew 26:38).
8. He was “greatly displeased” when the disciples refused to allow the little children to come to Him (Mk. 10:14); and
9. on two occasions Christ even “marveled” or was amazed; the first at the faith of the centurion (Matthew 8:10; Luke 7:9), and the second at the unbelief of the people of N<st1:city w:st="on"><st1><st1:city u1:st="on"><st1>azareth </st1></st1:city></st1></st1:city>(Mk. 6:6).
On the Humanity of Christ
There are numerous verses that, when viewed as a whole clearly denote the full humanity of Christ. There are also as many that denote His full divinity.
Here are the verses that speak to His humanity:
<o></o>From the OT:
1. He will come through the woman’s, i.e., Eve’s, seed (Gen. 3:15).
2. He is a prophet like unto Moses (Dt. 18:18);
3. a lineal descent of Abraham (Gen. 12:3; 22:18; cf. Acts 3:25; Heb. 2:16) and David (2 Sam. 7:12; cf. Lk. 1:32; Rom. 1:3);
4. who will be born of a virgin (Isa. 7:14) in <st1:city u1:st="on"><st1>Bethlehem</st1> (Mic. 5:2);
5. He is a man of sorrows (Isa. 53:3);
6. a servant of Jehovah (Isa. 42:1);
7. who will be forsaken by God (Ps. 22:1);
8. cut off from the land of the living (Isa. 53:8, 12);
9. and placed in a tomb (Isa. 53:9);
10. the Messiah will arise from the dead (Ps. 16:8-11) and
11. be exalted and seated at God’s right hand (Ps. 68:18);
12. had clothes that would be gambled over (Ps. 22:18);
13. real bones that could be broken (Ps. 34:20; 22:14, 17); and
14. could experience real human anguish and pain (Ps. 22:1, 2, 14-17);
15. had hands and feet that could be pierced (Ps. 22:16).
The apostles used the term "flesh" (sarx) in order to be very clear about the genuine humanity of the Messiah. The term "flesh" is often used in the OT to describe the whole man (e.g., Lev. 27:11; Deut. 12:15). In John the term "flesh" is used as a term to represent all that man is (Jn. 27:2). It is likely that the most important reason that the term "flesh" is used in Scripture is that the word often denotes the weakness and mortality of humans (e.g., Ps. 56:4; 78:39; Isa. 40:6-8). The Logos not only assumed a human nature, but a human nature that was liable to all the infirmities after the fall.
In John 8:40 Christ said to the Pharisees, “you seek to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth”.
Peter referred to Jesus as “a man attested to you by God” (Acts 2:22).
The author of Hebrews writes:
Heb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
Paul contrasted the first and second Adam in Romans chapter 5. There Paul refers to Christ as a man three separate occasions (Romans 5:15, 17, 19). When Paul discusses the resurrection of the body in 1 Corinthians 15, he refers to the man, the last Adam, in verses 21 and 47. Paul’s entire argument with respect to the resurrection presupposes that Christ was truly a man with a natural human body just like us (see 1 Cor. 15:44).
Paul in 1 Timothy 2:5 teaches there is only “there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
Christ's own self-designation was the title "the Son of Man" (Matthew 9:6; 11:19; 12:8, 32; 13:37, 41; 16:13, 16, 27, 28; 18:11; 19:28; 20:18 24:27, 30, 37, 44; 25:13, 31; 26:2, 24, 45, 64, etc.). The Messianic title points to His essential humanity.
The NT teaches Christ possessed the essential elements of human nature:
1. He exhibited real human growth both with regard to His body and soul- "He increased in wisdom and stature" (Luke 2:52);
2. "the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom" (Luke 2:40).
3. "that He learned obedience by the things which He suffered" (Hebrews 5:8);
4. that the captain of our salvation was made "perfect through sufferings" (Hebrews 2:10);
5. He grew weary on a journey (Jn. 4:6);
6. He was weakened by torture, beating, etc., from the Romans and needed some one to carry the cross (Matthew 27:32; Mk. 15:21);
7. while on the cross He became very thirsty (Jn. 19:28; Mt. 27:47);
8. in <st1><st1>Gethsemane</st1></st1> Christ was in such agony that His sweat became like great drops of blood (Lk. 22:44);
9. when fasting in the wilderness He became hungry (Matthew 4:2; cf. Matthew 21:18);
10. we became tired and needed sleep just like other men (Matthew 8:24).
11. Christ bled and died in a real human body (Lk. 23:46; Matthew 27:50; Jn. 19:30, 34);
12. after the resurrection Christ instructed the disciples to touch His body and see that "a Spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have" (Lk. 24:39);
13. Thomas was even told to place his finger in the holes in His side (Jn. 20:27-28);
14. post resurrection, the body of Christ ate boiled fish and honey in the presence of the disciples (Lk. 24:39); and
15. after His death, His dead physical body was turned over to Joseph of Arimathea for burial (Matthew 27:57-61).
Christ also possessed a human soul and exhibited the entire range of human emotions:
1. When witnessing the hypocrisy and legalism of the Pharisees He was grieved and looked at them with anger (Mk. 3:5);
2. when He witnessed merchants in the temple He </st1:city>became angry and drove them from of the temple with whips, overturning their tables and pouring out their money (Jn. 2:15-17);
3. when Christ saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion (Matthew 9:36);
4. He loved the rich young ruler (Mk. 9:21);
5. when Jesus observed Jews weeping at the death of Lazarus, “He groaned in the spirit and was troubled” (Jn. 11:33) and even wept Himself (Jn. 11:35);
6. contemplating His impending suffering on Golgotha He prayed “Now My soul is troubled” (Jn. 12:27);
7. before praying, He said to the disciples “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful” (Matthew 26:38).
8. He was “greatly displeased” when the disciples refused to allow the little children to come to Him (Mk. 10:14); and
9. on two occasions Christ even “marveled” or was amazed; the first at the faith of the centurion (Matthew 8:10; Luke 7:9), and the second at the unbelief of the people of N<st1:city w:st="on"><st1><st1:city u1:st="on"><st1>azareth </st1></st1:city></st1></st1:city>(Mk. 6:6).
MrRadish
New member
Newman
New member
This is all just a bunch of semantics. The only difference is that AMR and those that agree with him say that God can't die, and the others that say God can die. Of course, there are people that argue for some point in the middle of those two statements, but it all boils down to the fact that the whole argument about the hypostatic union is full of semantics and will never be resolved. Chances are, we all (to a degree) agree with each other on the hypostatic union, but we just label different things differently, and call different concepts different names.
AMR I was just about to take my afternoon nap, so.... thanks for the post. :up: :yawn:
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Are you actually following the sub-discussion or just interested in pinging me and toadying to the crowd at every opportunity?Uh... John 1:14 is a verse from the Bible (God's word) how can you accuse that as being a "Mormon belief"
Oh I get it. Anything you disagree with you try to marginalize by calling it "mormon" or "Jehovah Witness" etc. Good strategy AMR, if ya can't beat 'em... marginalize 'em!
Beloved57 made a statement then uses a verse to argue that Christ pre-existed with a glorified body before the Incarnation. Both PK and myself wonder how he makes that assumption from the verse in question. I say Beloved57's incorrect assumption is much like Mormons who think God and Christ possess physical bodies from all eternity.
Unlike many openists here during who, during a discussion with a non-openist, will sit on the sidelines and let someone that supports openism say things that are so clearly incorrect without being challenged, I cannot let a self-professed Calvinist like Beloved57 get away with what is so obviously incorrect. "Winning" at all costs is a Pyrrhic victory, Knight.
Are you are so obviously interested in bashing anyone who disagrees versus honest discourse that you will derail the thread just to do so?
edit: I see after posting this that you discovered you error. Nevertheless, my response stands.
uk_mikey
New member
Thanks for these.
I personally think that to diminish the full humanity of Christ is to diminish the humility and sacrifice of God. He's such a wondrous gift.
He connected with us, because He became one of us.
I don't know if that makes sense, but it does to me.
Newman
New member
Sometimes it does seem that way...
Yes and No.
Clearly AMR believes that the Son did not die (i.e., He wasn't separated from the Father) and therefore at the time of Jesus death there were four parts of the Godhead:
1. The Father
2. The Son (who was in heaven that didn't die)
3. The Son (who was on earth that did die for our sin)
4. The Holy Spirit.
That type of Quadritarianism is unbiblical and heretical. Furthermore it makes the crucifixion nothing more than an illusion, a parlor trick - The Son didn't really suffer and die for our sins because He was still in heaven with the Father (which is hogwash).
- Status