ECT Which Gospel Preached During the Tribulation Period?

[Jacob]

Disobedience is a moral failure. For the Law of God is moral.

Unless one is not given any commands (laws) to obey. Then all that exists is amoral anarchy or nihilism.

But you are then saying that morality exists through commands?!

 

[andyc]

No one for Adam to commit adultery with.

However, unfaithfulness to God and God's Word is often called spiritual adultery in the Bible.

So in effect, when Adam listened to the devil's words rather than obeying God's Words, Adam committed spiritual adultery with Satan.

(Another of the Ten Commandments violated, indeed!)

Which ended all fellowship between God and Adam.

Not taking the fruit was the only commandment we see in scripture given to Adam and Eve. One commandment.

 

[Jacob]

Do not limit human obligations to God's Law to the Jewish race.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

The law has existed since creation.

Not the Mosaic law. Where in the Bible is law refered to before Moses?

Adam was created and given commands from God.

Yes, that much is true.

All persons are born with a consciousness of right and wrong, due to Adam partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

heresy?

All persons have the natural laws of creation written on their hearts.

Please provide a verse.

So no man has any excuse for sinning against God.

I'm not saying anyone is allowed to sin against God.

It is a fallacy to believe that the Law did not arrive until God gave it to the nation of Israel through Moses.

What about the verse STP quoted? You are talking about God's Law with God's people. It came through the prophet Moses to the people of Israel.

Multitudes died in their sins before the time of the Jewish nation. Why? Because they were held in bondage to the law

NOPE!

according to the original Covenant of Works made with Adam.

Your contrived covenant.

Because they sinned, and were held guilty for their sins under the laws of God.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Romans 5:13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

All people are born and remain under the Covenant of Works on this earth, due to the sin of Adam,

Now you are saying your Covenant of Works is the result of the fall??? I thought you said the covenant was the commands which you call law!

Romans 7:13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

and the only escape is by the grace of God.

The only escape from a covenant of works is a covenant of grace???

Only those ransomed and transferred from under the Covenant of Works (Law) into a Covenant of Grace through faith in Jesus Christ are freed from the bondage of sin.

Romans 4:14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;

Romans 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

(Salvation is not exclusive to the people of Israel).

Every single person that has ever lived on this earth, has lived under either one covenant or the other. Does not matter when they lived, or what their nationality was.

Can a person change from one covenant to the other in your view? If there even is a Covenant of Works (how are you defining this again?).

One is either serving a death sentence for failing to keep the Covenant of Works (Law)

Do you mean through Adam or Moses? You have a screwy view of Romans.

or one is pardoned and freed under the Covenant of Grace by the power of God.

This could not be more straight-forward and truthful, for it is the subject of the entire Bible.

Nang

Freedom from the law is the desire for anarcy and the divorce of personal responsibility. There are things you cannot be freed from through the Law, but that does not make the Law a cause for death. Rather it is sin (which is not the law (Romans 2:12)). Rather you should be preaching freedom from sin (Biblical). What do you think? Is the law a curse to you or do you see God's plan for you through the law? Jesus Christ.

 

[Jacob]

Not taking the fruit was the only commandment we see in scripture given to Adam and Eve. One commandment.

When she said commandments I was thinking maybe she is including to be fruitful and multiply, but you are talking before the fall?!

 

[beloved57]

More on the Gospel of the kingdom in the Tribulation!

More on the Gospel of the kingdom in the Tribulation!

The Gospel of the Kingdom, of God's Sovereignty !

His Sovereignty in Salvation as well as providence. Matt 24:

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The Angel cries during this period in world history rev 14:


6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, [matt 24:14]

7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him
; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Those, and those only Fear God and give Glory to Him, are those its given to acknowledge His Sovereignty over all things, to include Salvation through Jesus Christ.

I have read once that no doctrine in scripture exalts God and the Work of Christ, as that of God's Sovereignty. For I believe that God "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will eph 1:11" and not after the will of any of His creatures, which is blasphemy and anti scriptural in light of scriptures like eph 1:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

Dan 4:

35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

The only way one can believe in the absolute Sovereignty of God, as it is revealed in Holy Scripture, it has to be Divinely given unto them to believe it, for its by it [ God's Sovereignty] they are able and willing to believe it, for its not only been given them to believe it, but to suffer for this most hated and rejected doctrine of the Gospel ! Jn 3:

27John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

phil 1:

29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Without this understanding of God's Sovereignty, there is no fear of God !

 

[Nang]

Some believe people are saved by keeping the Law.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.

No soul has ever been saved by keeping the Law. Being kept "in custody under the law" is not salvation, but being kept for the gift of faith from God that is salvation according to grace, alone.

So when did grace come in?

The first promise of grace (gospel message) was given to Eve in Genesis 3:15.

So how is a person saved?

By the grace of God, alone.

Is it the same before Christ as after?

Yes. All the O.T. saints were saved by the grace of God.

What conditions are there with grace?

None. Grace is the free gift of God.

I see the situation with Adam and Eve as God being in covenant with Adam and Eve, and giving them instruction. They certainly transgressed the commandment of God. The question you are flirting with is if God had planned salvation in Christ before Adam and Eve sinned.

I am not "flirting" with it, but absolutely believe God planned salvation in Christ before A&E sinned . . . in fact, I believe God planned salvation in Christ before He created the world. (Ephesians 1:3-4)

I hope you don't say that God caused Adam and Eve to sin.

I do not. Adam is held solely responsible for sin and death. (Romans 5:12)

I view Law as instruction, and perhaps in another way a body of commands. Of course God's commands began with Adam, but don't they continue with us? Grace does not mean God's instructions cease. We aren't exempt from sin because of God's grace. We still must be obedient even as Christ was obedient to the point of death on a cross.I understand this to be your perspective.

It is my perspective, but a Christian's obedience to God's Word and Law is exhibited under a new Covenant of Grace and motivated by thankfulness, love, and gratitude towards Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who worked their salvation.

That is much different that being held responsible and accountable to obey God under a Covenant of Works . . . which no sinner can or will keep.

But it sounds like you are adding Law to Law instead of just adding Law. The Law came in. It (God's commands through Moses) were not there previously. Some supposed that even the sabbath commandment was there in the garden. But you have to read all of what Paul wrote. The Law was not there previous to Moses.Hmm. Two covenants huh? I know there are more than that.

There is one Everlasting Covenant which is between Father and Son in heaven; that purposes, ordains, and accomplished all the good will and intent of God in this creation. This Covenant has ordained all the earthly covenants God has made with mankind.

First there is the original Covenant of Works, under which all men were created (in Adam) and held morally responsible and accountable before God.

And then, because no man has ever succeeded in keeping the Covenant of Works, God sent His Son in flesh, to successfully perform that very covenant and establish a new Covenant of Grace.

There are many other covenants revealed in Holy Scripture, but they are all meant to (progressively through time) reveal and teach these two contrasting covenants.

But when you say old covenant you have to mean the Law in Moses. You can't mean Works in Adam.

Same covenant, same Law, different administration (Moses vs Adam), progressive revelation of both.

Works isn't even an issue without the Law (in Moses).

Indeed. And Law demands works of obedience. Works and Law are synonymous.

My view of your position is that Grace was not there until Jesus, or is not there apart from Jesus (maybe to include those who died in Christ before Christ?).

Before Christ, the Covenant of Grace was revealed in covenants of promise of the Savior. All of the O.T. believers were saved by the grace of God by the gift of faith in the promises of God.

You don't see salvation in lawkeeping because Paul points out salvation is not of works.

Correct.

But, do you call even before the old covenant (Moses) "the old covenant" (ADAM????), simply because Genesis is a part of what is called the "old testament" in terms of literature and the Hebrew Bible (TaNaK)?

The Covenant of Works (Law) is called "old" in Scripture, because it preceded the Covenant of Grace in time. The promises of a Savior (grace) were given after and as a result of the fall (Adam breaking covenant with God).

The "new" Covenant of Grace is God's redemption of sinners affected by the original sin and covenant-breaking of Adam.

The Covenant of Grace is unconditional and not contingent upon the actions ("works") of men at all, for Jesus Christ has performed ALL of this covenant on behalf of His children.

And faith exhibited by those spiritually positioned under the Covenant of Grace, actually establishes the Law. Romans 3:31

It sounds like a defense system for corrupted theology, responsive to the world and protective of God.

Covenant Theology was held and taught by the early church fathers, and is quite valid. And of course, it is totally scriptural, and not speculative like many of the post-modern religious theories that abound.

Nang

 

[andyc]

When she said commandments I was thinking maybe she is including to be fruitful and multiply, but you are talking before the fall?!

This can't be a moral command, because God told every living creature to be fruitful and multiply.
After the fall we see one of the consequences of taking the fruit; moral discernment (the knowledge of good and evil).

 

[Katie]

Not taking the fruit was the only commandment we see in scripture given to Adam and Eve. One commandment.

Actually, was it even given to the Woman of God or to her through the Man? It may seem silly to men that such a thing be questioned, but in the perspective of a woman, this kind of perspective shift can make a world of difference in understanding the order of events.

The command was given in Genesis 2 to the Man before she even was brought to him. So, my guess is the command came to her through the Man, which makes a difference in understanding the accounts in Genesis, IMO.

 

[Jacob]

No soul has ever been saved by keeping the Law. Being kept "in custody under the law" is not salvation, but being kept for the gift of faith from God that is salvation according to grace, alone.

The first promise of grace (gospel message) was given to Eve in Genesis 3:15.

I'm not sure.

By the grace of God, alone.

Yes. All the O.T. saints were saved by the grace of God.

None. Grace is the free gift of God.

I am not "flirting" with it, but absolutely believe God planned salvation in Christ before A&E sinned . . . in fact, I believe God planned salvation in Christ before He created the world. (Ephesians 1:3-4)

I do not. Adam is held solely responsible for sin and death. (Romans 5:12)

Each individual is responsible for their own sin. Are we responsible for Adam's?

It is my perspective, but a Christian's obedience to God's Word and Law is exhibited under a new Covenant of Grace and motivated by thankfulness, love, and gratitude towards Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who worked their salvation.

That is much different that being held responsible and accountable to obey God under a Covenant of Works . . . which no sinner can or will keep.

Again, I don't know what you mean by Covenant of Works. The words are not found in the Bible, where we learn about the covenants.

There is one Everlasting Covenant which is between Father and Son in heaven;

Which Bible verse is that?

that purposes, ordains, and accomplished all the good will and intent of God in this creation. This Covenant has ordained all the earthly covenants God has made with mankind.

First there is the original Covenant of Works, under which all men were created (in Adam) and held morally responsible and accountable before God.

And then, because no man has ever succeeded in keeping the Covenant of Works,

It sounds like you are saying God gave people a way to be saved that they couldn't be saved by. I'm arguing that this is not the case.

God sent His Son in flesh, to successfully perform that very covenant and establish a new Covenant of Grace.

There are many other covenants revealed in Holy Scripture, but they are all meant to (progressively through time) reveal and teach these two contrasting covenants.

Says who? With what authority? Where is this found in scripture?

Same covenant, same Law, different administration (Moses vs Adam), progressive revelation of both.

No, it isn't the same. God gives individuals commands to observe, and they aren't all the same throughout time. But, for the nation of Israel, He gave the Law.

Indeed. And Law demands works of obedience. Works and Law are synonymous.

No, they aren't synonymous, else we wouldn't have "works of the Law". <-- Link.

Before Christ, the Covenant of Grace was revealed in covenants of promise of the Savior.

I know there were promises. I haven't said that they were all covenants. Maybe you can reference the covenants of promise.

All of the O.T. believers were saved by the grace of God by the gift of faith in the promises of God.

Correct.

The Covenant of Works (Law) is called "old" in Scripture, because it preceded the Covenant of Grace in time. The promises of a Savior (grace) were given after and as a result of the fall (Adam breaking covenant with God).

No. I've already told you. The only covenant called "old" is in Moses. Read the passage in Hebrews again. This is the specific covenant that is referenced. You want to extend Moses to Adam.

The "new" Covenant of Grace is God's redemption of sinners affected by the original sin and covenant-breaking of Adam.

That may be true, but this doesn't mean the covenant in Adam is the same as your conceived works based covenant in Moses. The prophet Moses did not bring a message about salvation through works... and yet you want to extrapolate one and place the burden of your idea upon Adam because he was the first one to break covenant with God. The issue of sin is more fundamental that that of works and law, but you want to talk first about how a hypothesized Covenant of Works is lacking. I haven't said you obtain salvation through works. You are saying God did give a covenant of works, by which no man could be saved. Am I right? What kind of a covenant is that? Especially when it has no scriptural basis.

The Covenant of Grace is unconditional and not contingent upon the actions ("works") of men at all, for Jesus Christ has performed ALL of this covenant on behalf of His children.

Why do you speak of a Covenant of Grace? Why not speak of the New Covenant? If they are synonymous why rename it except to fit your "'gospel' presentation"?

And faith exhibited by those spiritually positioned under the Covenant of Grace, actually establishes the Law. Romans 3:31

If the Covenant of Grace (in your view) is the New Covenant, then you must be mistaken. For, the faith of Romans 3:31 is the faith of Abraham which is before the new covenant. You are adding a work, needing to be under the Covenant of Grace, to the gospel. Faith came before the law. The law came as the result of faith. People who obeyed God's law obeyed God because by faith they were accepting the word (instruction) of God. In Romans 3:31 do we see this or do we see post-Christ faith and the reestablishment of law in our lives and in society?

Covenant Theology was held and taught by the early church fathers, and is quite valid.

I don't know what you mean by Covenant Theology. If what you are presenting is Covenant Theology, then my question is is it always presented in light of these two covenants as so named? And, why do you speak of "early church fathers"? Are they to be adhered to in practice? And, are you borrowing their terminology (do you have proof of what you have just said)?

And of course, it is totally scriptural, and not speculative like many of the post-modern religious theories that abound.

Nang

You are contrasting covenant theology with post-modernism? There are many theological views, but are you saying covenant theology is modern? Or, are you just saying your view has solid footing and does not waver compared with other competing views that you have observed?

 

[Jacob]

This can't be a moral command, because God told every living creature to be fruitful and multiply.
After the fall we see one of the consequences of taking the fruit; moral discernment (the knowledge of good and evil).

???

One thing at a time. Are all God's commands moral? Or, can some commands be considered immoral?

Moral discernment is not the result of taking the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Death is. Any moral discernment you have comes from God, not from disobedience.

 

[Lighthouse]

It's not like it is just the NIV that does not support the MAD view. Here are some other versions of the same verse that disagree with MAD

Youngs

(Gal 2:7 YLT) but, on the contrary, having seen that I have been entrusted with the good news of the uncircumcision, as Peter with [that] of the circumcision,

I really don't see how that doesn't support MAD.

Today’s New International Version

On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews.

It's the new NIV. Same as the old NIV.

Amplified

But on the contrary, when they [really] saw that I had been entrusted [to carry] the Gospel to the uncircumcised [Gentiles, just as definitely] as Peter had been entrusted [to proclaim] the Gospel to the circumcised [Jews, they were agreeable];

Take out the brackets, and everything in them, and what do you have?

But on the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted the Gospel to the uncircumcised as Peter had been entrusted the Gospel to the circumcised;

:think:

New Living Translation

Instead, they saw that God had given me the responsibility of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as he had given Peter the responsibility of preaching to the Jews.

Contemporary English Version

They realized that God had sent me with the good news for Gentiles, and that he had sent Peter with the same message for Jews.


God’s Word Translation

In fact, they saw that I had been entrusted with telling the Good News to people who are not circumcised as Peter had been entrusted to tell it to those who are circumcised.

New International Readers Version

In fact, it was just the opposite. They saw that I had been trusted with the task of preaching the good news just as Peter had been. My task was to preach to the non-Jews. Peter's task was to preach to the Jews.

Worldwide English (New Testament)

No, the leaders saw that God called me to take the good news to those who are not circumcised [not Jews], just as he called Peter to take the good news to those who are circumcised [Jews].

So.....unless you're interested in becoming a King James Onlyist, it appears that only the MADists claim this verse speaks of two different gospels.

It's sad that you think any of this actually matters. Who cares what different interpretations say? The issue is what the original says. And translations that agree with it are true. Those that do not are false.

And how many of those others you quoted do you think do the same with the verses from Deuteronomy?

A: Three. Two of which are versions of the NIV, so no surprise there.

Suppose a man happens to see a virgin who hasn't promised to marry another man. And the man who happens to see her rapes her. But someone discovers them. Then the man must weigh out 20 ounces of silver. He must give it to the woman's father. The man must marry the woman, because he raped her. And he can never divorce her as long as he lives.
NIrV

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
TNIV

This is what you must do when a man rapes a virgin who isn’t engaged. When the crime is discovered,the man who had sexual intercourse with her must give the girl’s father 1¼ pounds of silver, and she will become his wife. Since he raped her, he can never divorce her as long as he lives.
GWT

So you've got three left that do not give the idea that there are two different gospels spoken of in Galatians 2:7

αλλα τουναντιον ιδοντες οτι πεπιστευμαι το ευαγγελιον της ακροβυστιας καθως πετρος της περιτομης
-ΠΡΟΣ ΓΑΛΑΤΑΣ 2:7 [Galatians 2:7 in the Greek].

Can you tell me what that says?

 

[Nang]

But you are then saying that morality exists through commands?!

Yes.

 

[Nang]

The issue of sin is more fundamental that that of works and law

No it isn't.

What do you believe is the "issue of sin" if not those creaturely works which fail to measure up to God's holy and moral standards?

Why do you speak of a Covenant of Grace? Why not speak of the New Covenant?

Same thing. Are you willing to deny that the "new covenant" established by Jesus Christ is not one of divine grace?

the faith of Romans 3:31 is the faith of Abraham which is before the new covenant.

Almost correct . . . The faith of Abraham came to him as a gift of grace from God through belief in God's Word and Promises. Thus, Abraham was rescued and ransomed out from under the bondage of Law (Covenant of Works) and was brought into union with Truine God through the Covenant of Grace. This did occur before the manifestation and full exhibition of the new Covenant revealed in the Person of Jesus Christ.

However, the Covenant of Grace has existed since the promises were made by God to Eve in Genesis 3:15. The reason it is declared "new" in Scripture, is because it is contrasted with the "old" and original Covenant of Works ( Law) and only fully manifested in the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

The exclusive and sole gospel message has always been a message of grace; founded on the Covenant of Grace, and never based upon conditional human "works" under the Law. (The "old" Covenant of Works.)

I am simply offering different theological language than most here have heard. I realize such biblical and sound theology is hardly ever preached or heard these days, from the pulpits of the visible churches.

So be it . . .let those who have ears, hear.

Nang

 

[beloved57]

More on the Gospel of the kingdom in the Tribulation!

More on the Gospel of the kingdom in the Tribulation!

rev 14:


6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, [matt 24:14]

7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him

for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Those, and those only Fear God and give Glory to Him, are those its given to acknowledge His Sovereignty over all things, to include Salvation through Jesus Christ.

Now in regards to to Salvation and God's Sovereignty , hence the gospel of the Kingdom, we will look at a number of words and their meanings in salvation and gospel preaching.

The word chosen and salvation and the gospel. 2 thess 2:


13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Chosen to salvation, its plain from this passage that Paul linked being chosen to salvation with the gospel he preached in vs 14.

The greek word for chosen here is:

Haireomai and means :

to take for oneself, to prefer, choose

Our English language defines the word chosen as:

Selected from or preferred above others: the chosen few. Having been selected by God; elect. The elect considered as a group

Being favorite, favourite, darling or beloved

So, also the word beloved in scripture is a synonym for chosen ! Thats seen in 2 thess 2 : 13

I was in the grocery store the other night in the produce department to purchase some peaches, There was a whole bin of them and I chose or selected the ones I wanted to purchase from out of the many of them, and left the rest.

Now lets look at the word chosen throughout scripture:

Matt 20:

15Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

Matt 22:

14For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mk 13:

20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Jn 15:

16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

acts 9:

15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

acts 22:

14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

The emphasis is on preaching God's Sovereignty in choosing whom He will for salvation and service for His Kingdom !

 

[Jacob]

No it isn't.

What do you believe is the "issue of sin" if not those creaturely works which fail to measure up to God's holy and moral standards?

You are sending mixed messages, and I can't tell the distinction in what you are saying. My statement comes from the fact that death reigned because of sin before the law came, which is exactly what Paul says. Even those without the law perish because of sin (Romans 2:12). You have yet to respond to this. You just keep saying what you are saying as much as I explain how you are wrong according to scripture. A "Covenant of Works" in Adam does not exist in the Bible. I assume you have a definition for what this would mean, but the words are not found in scripture. This is the work of theologians, not the work of God's word revealed through scripture.

Same thing. Are you willing to deny that the "new covenant" established by Jesus Christ is not one of divine grace?

"Willing to deny"? No, it is grace alright. Otherwise grace is no longer grace. But you are contrasting God's grace with works saying works was there (a valid covenant, way of salvation) with Adam... that he never had a chance. I'm saying we have always had a chance to be obedient, and that it has always been by grace that we have had this chance. Fact is, we have all been disobedient. Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Under sin is different than under law. Not all are under law. But all are under sin.

Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Almost correct . . . The faith of Abraham came to him as a gift of grace from God through belief in God's Word and Promises. Thus, Abraham was rescued and ransomed out from under the bondage of Law (Covenant of Works)

Paul is pointing out that Abraham was before the Law, which is my point. The law does not nullify a previous covenant, in Abraham. Some think the law canceled out faith. That is not true at all. Rather faith is the foundation of law.

and was brought into union with Truine God through the Covenant of Grace. This did occur before the manifestation and full exhibition of the new Covenant revealed in the Person of Jesus Christ.

However, the Covenant of Grace has existed since the promises were made by God to Eve in Genesis 3:15.

Again, this is the work of theologians. The scriptures do not say "Covenant of Grace" at all. Theologians debate about what Genesis 3:15 means. Why read an idea back into scripture. Rather read the scripture and seek an explanation from God. But not one that convolutes the gospel.

The reason it is declared "new" in Scripture, is because it is contrasted with the "old" and original Covenant of Works ( Law) and only fully manifested in the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

Again, you are saying the old covenant is in Adam. Look at Hebrews. Have you done so yet? What does the passage say the old covenant is? Confirm to me that when you read the passage, where the author is quoting Jeremiah, you see the covenant in Moses. If you do not comment then I assume you are just going back to your erroneous theological training.

The exclusive and sole gospel message has always been a message of grace; founded on the Covenant of Grace, and never based upon conditional human "works" under the Law. (The "old" Covenant of Works.)

It sounds like you are looking for themes and calling them covenants. That is poor work with scripture. The covenants... why do you call them two with names Works and Grace? Why do you find them both in Genesis when the new covenant was not spoken of until after the old covenant came (Moses) (post Genesis). Again, this is according to Paul.

I am simply offering different theological language than most here have heard. I realize such biblical and sound theology is hardly ever preached or heard these days, from the pulpits of the visible churches.

So be it . . .let those who have ears, hear.

Nang

I'm asking for sound theology. You giving me a theological fairytale rather than pure scripture. If you can't recognize what the Bible says for what the Bible says, and have to find your own themes to read back into scripture, then what else can I say than read the Bible and that your theologians have led you astray from what the Bible says?!

 

[beloved57]

Gospel Preaching during the great tribulation.

Gospel Preaching during the great tribulation.

As stated earlier, the emphasis in the gospel during the great tribulation will be God's Sovereignty, for during this time apostasy will have taken over organized religion and mens sovereignty will be the preeminent promotion.

Again, as we look at what the apostles taught about the gospel, and the objects of salvation, we have showed the word chosen:

More scriptures with the word chosen emphasized :

acts 10:

41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

1 cor 1:

27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

Calling and being chosen are interchangeable here !

2 thess 2:

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Paul here is preaching chosen to salvation !

eph 1:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1 pet 2:

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

You think this was the first time that these letter recipients heard about being chosen ? Of course not. Peter is merely going over gospel truth they had received in the past.

James 2:

5Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

One must be chosen to be rich in Faith !

rev 14:

14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

This agrees with 1 cor 1:26-27 that the called and chosen are the same , and we can add the Faithful as in eph 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: who in vs 4 they are the chosen !

ps 33:

12Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

Jn 13:

18I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

deut 7:

6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Notice, nothing at all about freewill choice of men ! Its about God's choosing and His Sovereignty, this is scriptural Gospel preaching !

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There is no difference between the gospel given to Peter or the gospel given to Paul.

Here Paul speaks about the gospel which he preached among the Gentiles:

"And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain" (Gal.2:2).

If there were only "one" gospel then there would be absolutely no reason to specify that the gospel that he is speaking of is the one "which I preach among the Gentiles."

If the gospel which Paul "preached among the Gentiles" was the same one that the other Apostles were preaching then why would Paul want those Apostles to consider its relationship to the gospel they were proclaiming? That would make no sense.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Notice, nothing at all about freewill choice of men ! Its about God's choosing and His Sovereignty, this is scriptural Gospel preaching !

The Lord's choosing those who He saves is determined by His foreknowledge:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).

The Apostle Paul makes it plain that from the beginning the Lord looked into the future and saved those who believe:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

 

[beloved57]

The next word to consider is elect !

The next word to consider is elect !

The word elect is the greek word:

eklektos:


picked out, chosen

a) chosen by God,

1) to obtain salvation through Christ

Websters says:

To determine in favor of, to designate, choose or select as an object of mercy or favor, predestinated in the Divine Counsels, one chosen or set apart, one chosen or designated by God for salvation.

cruden's This election is an act of distinguishing love, of Divine SOVEREIGNTY, eternal, absolute, and irrevocable, and personal.

Salvation is by Mercy titus titus 3:

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

And Gods mercy is Sovereign rom 9:

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion

Notice this is in the context of election vs 11

Lets look at a few scriptures with the word elect !

Matt 24:

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

lk 18:

7And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

rom 8:

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

2 tim 2:

10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

There is no salvation in Christ Jesus for any but God's elect !

titus 1:

1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

That means they must have received their Faith from Jesus Christ God's elect Isa 42:

1Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect,

1 pet 1:

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

isa 45:

4For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

65:

9And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

2 john :

13The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion

His mercy comes to all who believe. The Lord's choosing those who He saves is determined by His foreknowledge:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).

The Apostle Paul makes it plain that from the beginning the Lord looked into the future and saved those who believe:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).