Where does it Say that Adam Lost His Free Will in the Fall?

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
What scripture said that Adam had a freewill?

Ezra 7:16 KJV
and all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:


Let me guess your response: "'the people" cited above had freewill, but not Adam.

Thanks for checkin' in. You can take your seat, in the back row, now.
 

Ben Masada

New member
Where does it say that Adam lost his free will in the fall?

Where does it say that Adam lost his free will in the fall?

Nowhere, which is an evidence that there was no fall as Adam & Eve were concerned. There was rather an ascending when they found out the Catch-22 in the command of HaShem and learned how to distinguish between good and evil from then on. Soon enough, they were ready to live the Garden of Eden and seek the Lord in the greater world.
 

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
In the matter of offerings God grants freewill...the reason is because God's gifts and callings are all without repentance, i.e they are irrevocable.
 

HisServant

New member
Just because I have the free will to think I own the moon, doesn't make it so.

What good is free will if the option that matters is not available to us.

It would be like me choosing to adopt your kids without your permission.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Ezra 7:16 KJV
and all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:


Let me guess your response: "'the people" cited above had freewill, but not Adam.

Thanks for checkin' in. You can take your seat, in the back row, now.
That scripture says nothing about Adam having a freewill!
 

Shasta

Well-known member
If you don't believe in Calvinism, the Truths of Tulip, you don't believe the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ!

If you don't believe in Calvinism, the Truths of Tulip, you don't believe the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ!

Calvin got his doctrines from Augustine whom he quoted over 400 times in his Institutes alone. He called Augustine by such titles as “holy man” and “holy father.” This is quite an interesting connection since Augustine, more than anyone, was the progenitor of the Catholic Church. Feel free to read the history if you are not afraid to think and be challenged (https://www.thebereancall.org/content/july-2012-classic). That is the least you can do seeing how often you tell people to search out your views by wading through your tedious threadbare threads.

It will become quickly clear to the thoughtful reader that Calvin took so much from Augustine as to be virtual plagiarism. All Calvin's TULIP doctrines came directly out of Augustine's system except for one (which over time was modified slightly). Calvin's work was not original at all but might as well be called neo-Augustinianism.

The problem with Augustine's doctrine is that it did not come from Christianity but was imported whole cloth from Manichaeaism, a Gnostic cult of which he had been a member before his conversion. At first he rejected Manichaeaism and even wrote a book favoring freewill. Later, however, in his debates with Pelagius he took an ever more radical position until he once again adopted the hard line position of the cult although he Christianized the terminology to make it fit into a Biblical contruct.

Manichaeaism held to the doctrine that man was so ruined that he had lost the ability to make any choice (total depravity). Therefore, his actions had to be pre-determined by one of two cosmic forces. These forces decided the destiny of all men. Sound familiar?

In the 400 years before this, going back to the first century, teachers and theologians had taught the doctrine of freewill. They coined that word not to establish a doctrine of salvation by works which they renounced, but to express the idea that, while God drew men, they still could say yes or no. The idea that people lacked volition and had to be predestined to make one decision or another was considered a pagan concept for the first four hundred years of Christianity. The Church Fathers stated this in no uncertain terms. Augustine did not know this because he spoke Latin and did not bother to learn Greek. Some of his major doctrinal errors (like those which led to the belief in infant damnation) were based upon translational errors in the Old Latin translations.

Like his theological decedent Calvin, Augustine became a persecutor. In accordance with their concept of God Augustine and Calvin did not mind using force to compel people to accept their views on penalty of death.

So you see historically TULIP comes from outside Christianity and is alien and opposed to it. These facts are available to anyone who cares enough to look.
 

j4jesus09

New member
Adam did not lose his free will in the fall. That is another Calvinist fairy tale.

What Adam lost was his relationship with God, not his free will.

Did God cause Cain to kill Abel? Of course not. Cain killed Abel by his own free will. All through the Old Testament the prophets and the Patriarchs are making choices by their own free will, they are not puppets or robots. They think and do as they chose.



God told Jonah to go and preach the word to the people in Nineveh, Jonah, 1:1, 2. What did Jonah do? He jumped on a ship and went in the opposite direction of Nineveh. Jonah was no puppet or robot. He thought that those people in Nineveh deserved to go to hell. Jonah by his own free will disobeyed God.



Did King David committ adultery with Betsheba because it was God's will? Of course not. King David by his own free will, like Jonah, sinned against God. The fact that people are able to resist God's will should be enough proof that mans free will is alive and well.

What did God do to Jonah? What did Jonah end up doing? Would you consider God forcefull in getting Jonah to change his mind? Waves and storms tossed the boat and a great fish swallowed up Jonah. God had NOTHING to do with that!!! of course not. I think you are not making a difference in the freedom of choice God has given us and what lies in man that causes his choices to be this or that.

If man is evil what choices to you think man makes? Evil
If man has a fallen nature what choices do you think he will make? Fallen nature choices

You state man is evil. Can make good choices.
You state out of the wickedness of mans heart. He can make good choices.

How does that make sense? Also, God FORCED Jonah into the right decision!! You wouldn't like ALMIGHTY GOD to do that to us though right. That would go against your desire for control. MAYBE, we can trust God knows way more than our small brains can see. Maybe God forcing us in the right direction is GOOD FOR US. Just my thoughts.
 
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beloved57

Well-known member
Calvin got his doctrines from Augustine whom he quoted over 400 times in his Institutes alone. He called Augustine by such titles as “holy man” and “holy father.” This is quite an interesting connection since Augustine, more than anyone, was the progenitor of the Catholic Church. Feel free to read the history if you are not afraid to think and be challenged (https://www.thebereancall.org/content/july-2012-classic). That is the least you can do seeing how often you tell people to search out your views by wading through your tedious threadbare threads.

It will become quickly clear to the thoughtful reader that Calvin took so much from Augustine as to be virtual plagiarism. All Calvin's TULIP doctrines came directly out of Augustine's system except for one (which over time was modified slightly). Calvin's work was not original at all but might as well be called neo-Augustinianism.

The problem with Augustine's doctrine is that it did not come from Christianity but was imported whole cloth from Manichaeaism, a Gnostic cult of which he had been a member before his conversion. At first he rejected Manichaeaism and even wrote a book favoring freewill. Later, however, in his debates with Pelagius he took an ever more radical position until he once again adopted the hard line position of the cult although he Christianized the terminology to make it fit into a Biblical contruct.

Manichaeaism held to the doctrine that man was so ruined that he had lost the ability to make any choice (total depravity). Therefore, his actions had to be pre-determined by one of two cosmic forces. These forces decided the destiny of all men. Sound familiar?

In the 400 years before this, going back to the first century, teachers and theologians had taught the doctrine of freewill. They coined that word not to establish a doctrine of salvation by works which they renounced, but to express the idea that, while God drew men, they still could say yes or no. The idea that people lacked volition and had to be predestined to make one decision or another was considered a pagan concept for the first four hundred years of Christianity. The Church Fathers stated this in no uncertain terms. Augustine did not know this because he spoke Latin and did not bother to learn Greek. Some of his major doctrinal errors (like those which led to the belief in infant damnation) were based upon translational errors in the Old Latin translations.

Like his theological decedent Calvin, Augustine became a persecutor. In accordance with their concept of God Augustine and Calvin did not mind using force to compel people to accept their views on penalty of death.

So you see historically TULIP comes from outside Christianity and is alien and opposed to it. These facts are available to anyone who cares enough to look.

If you don't believe in Calvinism, The Truths of Tulip, you don't believe the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ!
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Calvin got his doctrines from Augustine whom he quoted over 400 times in his Institutes alone. He called Augustine by such titles as “holy man” and “holy father.” This is quite an interesting connection since Augustine, more than anyone, was the progenitor of the Catholic Church. Feel free to read the history if you are not afraid to think and be challenged (https://www.thebereancall.org/content/july-2012-classic). That is the least you can do seeing how often you tell people to search out your views by wading through your tedious threadbare threads.

It will become quickly clear to the thoughtful reader that Calvin took so much from Augustine as to be virtual plagiarism. All Calvin's TULIP doctrines came directly out of Augustine's system except for one (which over time was modified slightly). Calvin's work was not original at all but might as well be called neo-Augustinianism.

The problem with Augustine's doctrine is that it did not come from Christianity but was imported whole cloth from Manichaeaism, a Gnostic cult of which he had been a member before his conversion. At first he rejected Manichaeaism and even wrote a book favoring freewill. Later, however, in his debates with Pelagius he took an ever more radical position until he once again adopted the hard line position of the cult although he Christianized the terminology to make it fit into a Biblical contruct.

Manichaeaism held to the doctrine that man was so ruined that he had lost the ability to make any choice (total depravity). Therefore, his actions had to be pre-determined by one of two cosmic forces. These forces decided the destiny of all men. Sound familiar?

In the 400 years before this, going back to the first century, teachers and theologians had taught the doctrine of freewill. They coined that word not to establish a doctrine of salvation by works which they renounced, but to express the idea that, while God drew men, they still could say yes or no. The idea that people lacked volition and had to be predestined to make one decision or another was considered a pagan concept for the first four hundred years of Christianity. The Church Fathers stated this in no uncertain terms. Augustine did not know this because he spoke Latin and did not bother to learn Greek. Some of his major doctrinal errors (like those which led to the belief in infant damnation) were based upon translational errors in the Old Latin translations.

Like his theological decedent Calvin, Augustine became a persecutor. In accordance with their concept of God Augustine and Calvin did not mind using force to compel people to accept their views on penalty of death.

So you see historically TULIP comes from outside Christianity and is alien and opposed to it. These facts are available to anyone who cares enough to look.


Excellent post.

I knew that Calvinism was not Christian. It is actually anti-Christ.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
What did God do to Jonah? What did Jonah end up doing? Would you consider God forcefull in getting Jonah to change his mind? Waves and storms tossed the boat and a great fish swallowed up Jonah. God had NOTHING to do with that!!! of course not. I think you are not making a difference in the freedom of choice God has given us and what lies in man that causes his choices to be this or that.

If man is evil what choices to you think man makes? Evil
If man has a fallen nature what choices do you think he will make? Fallen nature choices

You state man is evil. Can make good choices.
You state out of the wickedness of mans heart. He can make good choices.

How does that make sense? Also, God FORCED Jonah into the right decision!! You wouldn't like ALMIGHTY GOD to do that to us though right. That would go against your desire for control. MAYBE, we can trust God knows way more than our small brains can see. Maybe God forcing us in the right direction is GOOD FOR US. Just my thoughts.


All who are Gods children are led by the Holy Spirit.

It is not wise to go against the leading of the Spirit.

You could wind up like Jonah or worse, Hebrews 12:5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
What scripture said that Adam had a freewill?

"Freewill" was a term used by orthodox theologians of the Second and Third Centuries to describe the attribute of volition. They were not intending to convey the idea that man's will was totally unconstrained and uninfluenced by sin only that he was a moral being who possessed the ability to submit or rebel.

In the very beginning God sets man in a garden with all kinds of fruit telling him "of every tree you may freely eat." That meant he had a choice as to which tree to choose from. How much of what kind of fruit he ate was to be his decision - except the one tree. From the fact that God commanded him NOT to eat of it we may infer that (1) it was not God's will for him to eat it and (2) that it was possible for him to do so against God's will.

What a strange twisted view of God - to have Him commanding Adam not to eat of that tree while irresistibly forcing him to do it and then punishing not only Adam for his disobedience but every soul that would ever be born of him.

The Bible presents this event as a clear test of obedience. This is the way it reads unless a person already has Calvinistic presuppositions.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
"Freewill" was a term used by orthodox theologians of the Second and Third Centuries to describe the attribute of volition. They were not intending to convey the idea that man's will was totally unconstrained and uninfluenced by sin only that he was a moral being who possessed the ability to submit or rebel.

In the very beginning God sets man in a garden with all kinds of fruit telling him "of every tree you may freely eat." That meant he had a choice as to which tree to choose from. How much of what kind of fruit he ate was to be his decision - except the one tree. From the fact that God commanded him NOT to eat of it we may infer that (1) it was not God's will for him to eat it and (2) that it was possible for him to do so against God's will.

What a strange twisted view of God - to have Him commanding Adam not to eat of that tree while irresistibly forcing him to do it and then punishing not only Adam for his disobedience but every soul that would ever be born of him.

The Bible presents this event as a clear test of obedience. This is the way it reads unless a person already has Calvinistic presuppositions.


Right, We must remember that Satan was in the garden also. God gave Adam the law, not so that when he failed he would be punished, but to help him overcome the temptations of the devil. The law is good in that it keeps us from harming ourselves. Adam had to learn that the hard way.
 

Shasta

Well-known member
If you don't believe in Calvinism, The Truths of Tulip, you don't believe the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ!

I have just shown you historically that TULIP was not part of the theology of the first four generations of leaders that succeeded the Apostles and that it was uniformly considered anti-Christian and pagan. In fact TULIP came from Persian Gnosticism through Augustine and then Calvin. This is a matter of history and chanting the mantra of your faith in Calvinism will not change that no matter how many times you repeat it. Your system of interpreting the scriptures come from a polluted source outside the Faith.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
I have just shown you historically that TULIP was not part of the theology of the first four generations of leaders that succeeded the Apostles and that it was uniformly considered anti-Christian and pagan. In fact TULIP came from Persian Gnosticism through Augustine and then Calvin. This is a matter of history and chanting the mantra of your faith in Calvinism will not change that no matter how many times you repeat it. Your system of interpreting the scriptures come from a polluted source outside the Faith.

Lol, I don't care what you have shown, if you don't believe that Tulip truths are the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ, you don't believe the Gospel!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Right, We must remember that Satan was in the garden also. God gave Adam the law, not so that when he failed he would be punished, but to help him overcome the temptations of the devil. The law is good in that it keeps us from harming ourselves. Adam had to learn that the hard way.

Invalid comments!
 

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
Calvin got his doctrines from Augustine whom he quoted over 400 times in his Institutes alone. He called Augustine by such titles as “holy man” and “holy father.” This is quite an interesting connection since Augustine, more than anyone, was the progenitor of the Catholic Church. Feel free to read the history if you are not afraid to think and be challenged (https://www.thebereancall.org/content/july-2012-classic). That is the least you can do seeing how often you tell people to search out your views by wading through your tedious threadbare threads.

It will become quickly clear to the thoughtful reader that Calvin took so much from Augustine as to be virtual plagiarism. All Calvin's TULIP doctrines came directly out of Augustine's system except for one (which over time was modified slightly). Calvin's work was not original at all but might as well be called neo-Augustinianism.

The problem with Augustine's doctrine is that it did not come from Christianity but was imported whole cloth from Manichaeaism, a Gnostic cult of which he had been a member before his conversion. At first he rejected Manichaeaism and even wrote a book favoring freewill. Later, however, in his debates with Pelagius he took an ever more radical position until he once again adopted the hard line position of the cult although he Christianized the terminology to make it fit into a Biblical contruct.

Manichaeaism held to the doctrine that man was so ruined that he had lost the ability to make any choice (total depravity). Therefore, his actions had to be pre-determined by one of two cosmic forces. These forces decided the destiny of all men. Sound familiar?

In the 400 years before this, going back to the first century, teachers and theologians had taught the doctrine of freewill. They coined that word not to establish a doctrine of salvation by works which they renounced, but to express the idea that, while God drew men, they still could say yes or no. The idea that people lacked volition and had to be predestined to make one decision or another was considered a pagan concept for the first four hundred years of Christianity. The Church Fathers stated this in no uncertain terms. Augustine did not know this because he spoke Latin and did not bother to learn Greek. Some of his major doctrinal errors (like those which led to the belief in infant damnation) were based upon translational errors in the Old Latin translations.

Like his theological decedent Calvin, Augustine became a persecutor. In accordance with their concept of God Augustine and Calvin did not mind using force to compel people to accept their views on penalty of death.

So you see historically TULIP comes from outside Christianity and is alien and opposed to it. These facts are available to anyone who cares enough to look.

The inestimable folly is that in rejecting those aspects of Augustine and Calvin regarding what is called double predestiny, Robert also rejects those GLORIOUS truths of predestination and election as taught by the apostle Paul.

It is not good enough to develop a doctrine of predestination and election and twist it to make it a more acceptable doctrine to the human mind. We must have it as Paul taught it.

And the way Paul taught it is glorious.
 

Ben Masada

New member
Where does it say that Adam lost his free will in the fall?

Where does it say that Adam lost his free will in the fall?

Adam never lost his free will since he was granted it. Free will is such a serious grant that even HaShem Himself cannot intervene unless in case of Pichuach Nephesh as it was in the case of Pharaoh. Pichuach Nephesh is a concept that allows to wave a commandment so that another more important be fulfilled. Usually, it is permitted to apply it when there is danger of life & death.
 

j4jesus09

New member
All who are Gods children are led by the Holy Spirit.

It is not wise to go against the leading of the Spirit.

You could wind up like Jonah or worse, Hebrews 12:5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11.

Correct. All who are God's children. God makes children. We don't become children by our own doing. Did you become a child of your parents? Or were you born against your will?

It is not wise to go against the Spirit. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 12:5 says SONS don't despise. God is talking to His sons. Once again you go back to he only forces his sons and daughters but force before we BECOME his sons and daughters is not cool to you. GOD forces us BY the FORCE OF LOVE. We are born into His family because he has purposed it by His love. LOVE IS THE ULTIMATE FORCE. So you tell me how you were born on earth to you parents and I will tell you how you were born of God. IF YOU EVEN HAVE BEEN BORN OF GOD YET? We did absolutely nothing but confess and receive what God PLACED in us to SEE AND ACCEPT. You make being saved a simple thing when it's highly an act of God doing the work in man. Peace and blessings. Give God the glory for who you are and not yourself. I wonder how far a man has to go to lose his salvation. Since Jonah just luckily repented I wonder how far a man has to go to lose it all. Do some get just lucky and come to their senses? Hmm. I wouldn't want to know believing that I hold my salvation in my hands. I know I can mess up if left to me. I guess, I'm just gifted with smarter intellect to see that God is Good and worthy of striving the rest of life for Him. I guess others were not that fortunate to see God like I do. THat He is holy and worthy and worth growing and maturing for and becoming everything He desires me to be. Hmmm. I guess I just figured it out. My brain is able to see that. I am so blessed. Others are not. Obvious sarcasm :)
 
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j4jesus09

New member
Adam never lost his free will since he was granted it. Free will is such a serious grant that even HaShem Himself cannot intervene unless in case of Pichuach Nephesh as it was in the case of Pharaoh. Pichuach Nephesh is a concept that allows to wave a commandment so that another more important be fulfilled. Usually, it is permitted to apply it when there is danger of life & death.

There is no such thing as freewill. Life is what we have. In our life that God has given us we function or work off what's in our heart, mind and soul. Since man is not all understanding and was given limited amount of understanding and knowledge man was prone to mess up given the event presented itself. The serpent was that event and he trumped God's way by deceiving Eve prematurely about the things God was more than likely going to teach in His time. Not sure what God's plan necessarily was before the fall. Surely I would think He was going to teach them as He is doing right now with us. Good! God is all understanding that is why He CANNOT miss the mark(sin). God can't be deceived, or fooled. He is the TRUTH. Amen
 

Totton Linnet

New member
Silver Subscriber
Correct. All who are God's children. God makes children. We don't become children by our own doing. Did you become a child of your parents? Or were you born against your will?

It is not wise to go against the Spirit. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 12:5 says SONS don't despise. God is talking to His sons. Once again you go back to he only forces his sons and daughters but force before we BECOME his sons and daughters is not cool to you. GOD forces us BY the FORCE OF LOVE. We are born into His family because he has purposed it by His love. LOVE IS THE ULTIMATE FORCE. So you tell me how you were born on earth to you parents and I will tell you how you were born of God. IF YOU EVEN HAVE BEEN BORN OF GOD YET? We did absolutely nothing but confess and receive what God PLACED in us to SEE AND ACCEPT. You make being saved a simple thing when it's highly an act of God doing the work in man. Peace and blessings. Give God the glory for who you are and not yourself. I wonder how far a man has to go to lose his salvation. Since Jonah just luckily repented I wonder how far a man has to go to lose it all. Do some get just lucky and come to their senses? Hmm. I wouldn't want to know believing that I hold my salvation in my hands. I know I can mess up if left to me. I guess, I'm just gifted with smarter intellect to see that God is Good and worthy of striving the rest of life for Him. I guess others were not that fortunate to see God like I do. THat He is holy and worthy and worth growing and maturing for and becoming everything He desires me to be. Hmmm. I guess I just figured it out. My brain is able to see that. I am so blessed. Others are not. Obvious sarcasm :)

Yes it makes me smile

You would think God came and curtseyed to Robert and beg his permission before He was created in the natural. God did not even enter into consultation with him...that is what I love about God...He just goes right ahead and does things.

The reason for that is He is perfect, every thing He does is perfect. It is a failure to trust that everything God does is perfect and right that causes people to reject His sovereignty.

We'd be a lot better off concerning ourselves with seeking God's good and perfect will for our lives than fiddling and fretting about our supposed freewill.
 
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