Where Does It Say In The Bible That You Go Directly To Heaven When You Die?

[Derf]

Your idea about that directly contradicts the words of Paul here:

"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:6,8).​

Paul does not say that being away from the earthly body is to be at home with our heavenly body, as you imagine.

Instead, he says that being away from our earthly body is "to be present with the Lord."

And since the Lord is now in heaven then once a person dies physically he is with the Lord in heaven.

I suppose. But you have yet to deal with the naked state being an undesirable one, according to Paul.

 

[Lon]

Moreover, where does the theology that people are "looking down on us" from heaven? Where does that come from?

Hebrews 12:1

I noticed in during the Billy Graham funeral his daughter said that "Daddy was in heaven", but then she turned around and quoted 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 which literally contradicts [my] theology.

Brackets have this making a more meaningful statement. Or perhaps "contradicts how I've come to understand this scripture" etc. :think:

People really are confused about what the Bible states concerning the state of the dead.

Including you? Or do you have all this down pat? :think:

Not only is this sad, but also extremely dangerous.

This one statement has me thinking this is all a preliminary for a posturing thread rather than meaningful dialogue.
If it were a Jehovah Witness website and OP, I'd know what I'm getting into and would be ready for that.

My theological understanding is found here.
A few more scriptures were discussed here too (not the first time this topic has been discussed).:e4e:

 

[DAN P]

Hebrews 12:1




Brackets have this making a more meaningful statement. Or perhaps "contradicts how I've come to understand this scripture" etc. :think:


Including you? Or do you have all this down pat? :think:


This one statement has me thinking this is all a preliminary for a posturing thread rather than meaningful dialogue.
If it were a Jehovah Witness website and OP, I'd know what I'm getting into and would be ready for that.

My theological understanding is found here.
A few more scriptures were discussed here too (not the first time this topic has been discussed).:e4e:

Hi Lon , and I believe that 1 Cor 4:9 trumps Heb 12:1 !!

The verb I THINK / DOKEO , is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and place 1 Cor 4:9 as , being written to the B O C and Hebs 12:1 DOE NOT !!

And is the only passage written where angels are looking down upon the whole world and are watching us with those humans around us !!

dan p

 

[glorydaz]

I suppose. But you have yet to deal with the naked state being an undesirable one, according to Paul.

It sounds like it's not possible rather than undesirable.

2 Corinthians 5:2-4
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.​

 

[Lon]

Hi Lon , and I believe that 1 Cor 4:9 trumps Heb 12:1 !!

The verb I THINK / DOKEO , is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE and place 1 Cor 4:9 as , being written to the B O C and Hebs 12:1 DOE NOT !!

And is the only passage written where angels are looking down upon the whole world and are watching us with those humans around us !!

dan p

Seems you are saying 'both' so this second point likely doesn't matter if we are in agreement: I don't tend to like scripture 'trumping' another one lest I become a picker/chooser. I do realized Mid Acts does have an 'us/them' division, and perhaps in that 'trumps' but I'm not very comfortable with such language occurs. As I said, however, if your expression is agreement between the two, I think you are saying that 'this scripture does better upon clarity imho.' If that's your point, thank you for sharing and scripture support (if not, still thanks).

A bit off-topic, but I do believe Hebrews is addressed to 'Hebrews' as well. I don't have 'forefathers' as they etc. but witnesses 'are' witnesses (which is why I think this is ultimate agreement (the Mid Acts "other's mail" isn't necessary and again, thanks).

-Lon

 

[glorydaz]

Seems you are saying 'both' so this second point likely doesn't matter if we are in agreement: I don't tend to like scripture 'trumping' another one lest I become a picker/chooser. I do realized Mid Acts does have an 'us/them' division, and perhaps in that 'trumps' but I'm not very comfortable with such language occurs. As I said, however, if your expression is agreement between the two, I think you are saying that 'this scripture does better upon clarity imho.' If that's your point, thank you for sharing and scripture support (if not, still thanks).

A bit off-topic, but I do believe Hebrews is addressed to 'Hebrews' as well. I don't have 'forefathers' as they etc. but witnesses 'are' witnesses (which is why I think this is ultimate agreement (the Mid Acts "other's mail" isn't necessary and again, thanks).

-Lon

I don't think the "witnesses" there are referring to their looking down, but of their being examples of faith....their testimonies, as it were. Like Abel...

Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.​

 

[God's Truth]

You could be saying the exact same thing to yourself. :chuckle:




These verses come from the contrasting of old and new covenants that is found throughout the book of Hebrews and are to be read in that manner instead of assuming that they are speaking about believers going to heaven to meet God at the moment they believe.

No, those scriptures are about those who died before Jesus came to earth.

In the Old Testament, the people that gathered at Mount Sinai (see Hebrews 12:18-21) never went onto the mountain, they gathered at the base of the mountain and received word from Moses in fear.
In contrast, the people that gather at Mount Tzion (see Hebrews 12:12-24) do not go onto the mountain, they gather at the base of the mountain and received word from Jesus in joy.
The verses never state that we come onto Mount Tzion, only that we come near (unto) Mount Tzion.
Christians never make it into Heavenly Jerusalem in this life.

You are denying the scriptures that plainly say we come to have where the spirits of righteous men are.

Witnesses in the Bible are not the same as you seem to think.
"Witness" is used as another word for "proof" or "evidence".

Genesis 21:30 30 And he said, For these seven ewe lambs shalt thou take of my hand, that they may be a witness unto me, that I have digged this well.​

The cloud of witnesses are not souls watching what we do.
The cloud of witnesses is the life and death of the people from the Old Testament that provided evidence of how much commitment we are to use in persevering in this life the same way they did.

No, the witnesses are the righteous spirits of the people who died before Jesus came.

Maybe you are reading something into that verse that just is not there?


You jumbled together a bunch of verses hoping that they convey a message other than what they convey individually?
Are you Squeaky?
Do you want each one of these verses refuted separately or just the concept?
The Bible shows us over and over that a person lives, dies, goes into the grave, and then is resurrected.
Nothing but the grave is between death and resurrection.

All you are doing is denying what the scriptures say.

The scriptures say plainly that when we come to God we come to heaven WHERE THE SPIRITS OF THE RIGHTEOUS ARE.
The scriptures about the witnesses are are those who were the righteous who and are were made perfect by Jesus dying for us.

Jesus is speaking about following Him in being obedience unto death, not about following Him to heaven.

There are other scriptures that tell us the saved go to heaven when they die.


You do this:

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.


Did you read that?

You do what the Pharisees do. You shut up the kingdom of heaven.

 

[God's Truth]

The exact same thing is stated here, but this verse shows the real meaning of the one you are quoting.

Job 32:14-15 14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.​

What do you think you disproved?

There is a difference between unclean spirits and people.

No spirits die. Angels are spirit and they do not die.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I suppose. But you have yet to deal with the naked state being an undesirable one, according to Paul.

So you admit that there are Christians who are with the LORD in heaven now?

In regard to the naked state of which Paul spoke what kind on a body do those have who are with the LORD now?

Let me give you a hint. The Scriptures speak of a natural body and the natural bodies of Christians who have passed away have been turned to dust. The Scriptures also speak of spiritual bodies but those bodies will not be put on until the time when the living saints will be caught up.

Since those in heaven now have neither of those two bodies then if they aren't naked then what kind of body do they have now?

And Paul was saying that since he was waiting for the new, glorious body like the Lord's glorious body he preferred that that would happen while he remained alive so therefore he would not be found naked.

 

[Derf]

It sounds like it's not possible rather than undesirable.

2 Corinthians 5:2-4
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.​

Well....I wasn't sure how to read the "if so be" part of the verse. Most translations follow that pattern, but a few say it slightly different. Here are some:

KJV If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

NKJV if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.

NLT For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies.

NIV because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.

ESV if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.

CSB since, when we have taken it off, we will not be found naked.
​

So the verse itself, in most translations doesn't seem to say there is no naked state, but Paul seems to make it clear that it isn't something we want or long for; rather the opposite:
[2Co 5:4 NKJV] For we who are in [this] tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
And that last bit seems to indicate that life consists of being further clothed and mortality seems to consist of being unclothed.

 

[genuineoriginal]

the witnesses are the righteous spirits of the people who died before Jesus came.

No, that is a modern European interpretation of what Paul's disciple wrote, but it does not match the Jewish thought in the first century, which is the most important thing to consider.

There are other scriptures that tell us the saved go to heaven when they die.

No, the Bible never says the saved go to heaven when they die.

You shut up the kingdom of heaven.

You are the one doing that by insisting that the dead are living in heaven before the resurrection.
I teach what the Bible teaches.

Hebrews 9:27-28 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.​

Daniel 12:2 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

 

[Derf]

So you admit that there are Christians who are with the LORD in heaven now?

What I'm admitting is that there is some tension between some verses. Your concept of God doesn't allow for any other option than "that there are Christians who are with the LORD in heaven now", since the LORD exists in an eternal now. But that also means that you are in heaven with the Lord right now and have been for all eternity, which is false. Therefore you should question your concept of God. I have suggested some ways that allow for an immediate presence with the Lord upon death without there being Christians in heaven now, but I'm not bound to those options.

In regard to the naked state of which Paul spoke what kind on a body do those have who are with the LORD now?

As I said, I'm not so sure that deceased believers are with the Lord right now.

Let me give you a hint. The Scriptures speak of a natural body and the natural bodies of Christians who have passed away have been turned to dust. The Scriptures also speak of spiritual bodies but those bodies will not be put on until the time when the living saints will be caught up.

Since those in heaven now have neither of those two bodies then if they aren't naked then what kind of body do they have now?

And Paul was saying that since he was waiting for the new, glorious body like the Lord's glorious body he preferred that that would happen while he remained alive so therefore he would not be found naked.

Let's follow your logic.

1. The bodies of believers decay/turn to dust, so they are never used again.
2. God presents believers with spiritual bodies eventually, but not immediately upon death.
3. These bodies, according to 2 Cor 5:2, is from heaven, so in concert with #2, is in heaven with the spiritual presence of the believers, but not joined to them.
4. 1Thessalonians 4:16 says that some thing regarding deceased believers is raised at the coming of the Lord.

What is that thing that will rise first (before living believers), if the natural bodies are decayed (never to be used again) and new bodies are coming from heaven and the deceased believers are already in heaven (albeit without bodies)? What is rising?

 

[God's Truth]

No, that is a modern European interpretation of what Paul's disciple wrote, but it does not match the Jewish thought in the first century, which is the most important thing to consider.

It is ignorant to try to consult a Jewish person about God's Truth. Just because someone is Jewish does not mean they have a special revelation.

No, the Bible never says the saved go to heaven when they die.

I have given you many scriptures saying they do. Your denial is not a defense of the truth.

You are the one doing that by insisting that the dead are living in heaven before the resurrection.
I teach what the Bible teaches.

Hebrews 9:27-28 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.​

We are always being judged.

Daniel 12:2 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

That is about the great white throne judgement, the final judgement.

 

[glorydaz]

Well....I wasn't sure how to read the "if so be" part of the verse. Most translations follow that pattern, but a few say it slightly different. Here are some:

KJV If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

NKJV if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.

NLT For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies.

NIV because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.

ESV if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.

CSB since, when we have taken it off, we will not be found naked.
​

So the verse itself, in most translations doesn't seem to say there is no naked state, but Paul seems to make it clear that it isn't something we want or long for; rather the opposite:
[2Co 5:4 NKJV] For we who are in [this] tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
And that last bit seems to indicate that life consists of being further clothed and mortality seems to consist of being unclothed.

Could be. I just think of the verse...

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have suggested some ways that allow for an immediate presence with the Lord upon death without there being Christians in heaven now, but I'm not bound to those options.

Would you please give me your meaning of the words in "bold" in the following passage?"

"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:6,8).​

Thanks!

 

[Derf]

Could be. I just think of the verse...

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Both of those seem to link immortality with an immortal body, and not just a <naked> spirit.

Good references!

 

[Derf]

Would you please give me your meaning of the words in "bold" in the following passage?"

"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:6,8).​

Thanks!

I think I already gave my answer to that, but I'll do it again. It is referring the the earthly body. And while we are content to stay in the earthly body as long as God chooses, we don't need to fear death, as death will bring us into the presence of the Lord. But it doesn't say we will be absent from any and all bodies--only "the" body, which I take to mean our earthly body.

 

[Derf]

Would you please give me your meaning of the words in "bold" in the following passage?"

"Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord...We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:6,8).​

Thanks!

What did you think of the logic train?

 

[glorydaz]

I think I already gave my answer to that, but I'll do it again. It is referring the the earthly body. And while we are content to stay in the earthly body as long as God chooses, we don't need to fear death, as death will bring us into the presence of the Lord. But it doesn't say we will be absent from any and all bodies--only "the" body, which I take to mean our earthly body.

You know how this body of flesh is called a tent? Perhaps the "many mansions" is referring to other types of bodies....even interim bodies. :idunno:

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It is referring the the earthly body. And while we are content to stay in the earthly body as long as God chooses, we don't need to fear death, as death will bring us into the presence of the Lord.

Yes, when we die physically we are present with the LORD:

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor.5:6,8).​

When a Christian dies physically then his body turns to dust and he goes to be in the presence of the LORD.

What kind of body does the Christian have on when he is in the presence of the LORD in heaven?