When does the biblical day begin?

clefty

New member
There is a huge amount of confusion here. One must be extremely careful when interpreting the texts.
"Day" often mean "daytime.
"Tomorrow" often means "the next daytime"
What is really of interest is how the Jews counted their days- specifically the holidays. That has been from evening to evening, starting from Biblical times, and continuing to this day.
only the day of the atonement...the other holidays do not...this day is not the standard but the different than the other...passover did not start in the evening, unleavened bread did not, first fruits did not, Pentecost did not, trumpets did not, tabernacles did not...only the the 9th at evening into the dark/night part of the 9th begin your affliction...

Unless there is some rock-solid evidence that we have changed our custom at some point in history, one should assume that the Jewish tradition hasn't changed.

Jewish tradition eh? What did He say was making Him His way void? Jewish tradition...

What did He call those that did such?

As for rock solid evidence jewish tradition has changed, how about:

Historical Sources


"...Early in the old testament period, when Canaan was under Egypt's influence, the day started at sunrise... later, perhaps under Babylonian influence, the calendar seems to have changed. the day began at moonrise (1800 hrs) and a whole day became an evening and a morning..." (Lion Encyclopedia of the Bible - p.163).
"...according to the Karaite historian Al-QirqisanI (ca. 975 CE), the dissident Meswi al-Okbari (ca.850 CE) broke from traditional Rabbinical Judaism in an attempt to get back to the original religion and began the reckoning of the day from sunrise. (The Itinerary of R. Benjamin of Tudela, ix, 5-8, ed. Gruhut-Adler, (1904), p. 23)

"...To the Light He gives the name Day, to the Darkness the name Night...Thus the work of the first day, reckoned probably from morning to morning, is accomplished. The period of Light is followed by Evening and Darkness, which comes to an end with the next morning when the second day begins..." (Peake's Commentary on The Bible, p.136).

"Among the Greeks the day was reckoned from sunset to sunset..." (Handbook of Chronology, op.cit., p.8)

"the Mishnah (the collection of Jewish law made at the end of the 2nd century AD) fully describes the system which the Jews had worked out under Babylonian influence..." (Eerdman's Handbook to the Bible).

"In order to fix the beginning and ending of the Sabbath-day and festivals and to determine the precise hour for certain religious observances it becomes necessary to know the exact times of the rising and setting of the sun. According to the strict interpretation of the Mosaic law, every day begins with sunrise and ends with sunset... (Jewish Encyclopedia, p. 591-597)

"There can be no doubt that in pre-exilic times the Israelites reckoned the day from morning to morning. The day began with the dawn and closed with the end of the night following it..." (Jacob Zallel Lauterbach, Rabbinic Essays, (Cincinnati: Hebrew Union College Press, 1951), p. 446)

"Among the ancient Israelites, as among the Greeks, the day was reckoned from sunset to sunset. This was the custom also of the Gauls and ancient Germans, and was probably connected originally with the cult of the moon. There is, however, evidence that this was not the custom at all times..." (Delitzsch in Dillmann's commentary on Gen. i. 5)

"...Numerous scholars have argued for the existence in Bible times of a sunrise method of day reckoning...the evidence for the sunrise reckoning is significant and cannot be ignored..." (The Time of the Crucifixion and the Resurrection, Chapter 5)

"the days of creation are not reckoned from evening to evening, but from morning to morning..." (Commentary on the Old Testament, The First Book of Moses, p. 51)

"From a very early period the time of reckoning the day was from sunset to sunset, and this BECAME THE JEWISH METHOD..."
(Unger's Bible Dictionary, "Day", page 1098)

"...In earlier traditions a day apparently began at sunrise (e.g., Lev. 7:15-17; Judg. 19:4-19)... later its beginning was at sunset and its end at the following sunset... this system became normative... and is still observed in Jewish tradition, where for example , the sabbath begins on Friday evening at sunset and ends Saturday at sunset..." (Oxford Companion to the Bible, p.744).

"When the Jews returned to Palestine after their Babylonian exile (516 B.C.E.) they brought back with them the Babylonian astronomy and way of reckoning time..." (What is a Jew, p. 108)

"Days were reckoned from morning to morning... Following the reign of King Josia (c. 640-609), and especially after the Babylonian exile a number of significant and enduring changes occurred in the Israelite calendar showing that the Jews gradually adopted the Babylonian calendar of the time...the seven day week persisted despite its failure to divide evenly either the month or the year. the day however, was counted from evening to evening, after the Babylonian fashion..." (New Catholic Encyclopedia -Volume 11, p.1068)

"...The nighttime is considered as belonging to the preceding period of daylight. from this there developed the meaning of "day" in the sense of the cycle made up of one period of daylight and one period of darkness, or according to our modern reckoning, twenty-four hours...from the natural viewpoint the twenty-four hour day begins at sunrise... however, beside this conception there arose another idea of the twenty-four hour day, according to which this daily period began at sunset. it was no doubt the lunar calendar of the Jews which gave rise to this viewpoint... although the earlier computation did not die out completely, the custom of considering the day as beginning at sunset became general in later Jewish times..." (Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible. p.497)

"In the Old Testament the earlier practice seems to have been to consider that the day began in the morning. In Gen. 19:34, for example, the "morrow" (ASV) or "Next Day" (RSV) clearly begins with the morning after the preceding night..." (Jack Finegan, The Handbook of Biblical Chronology, p.7-8).

"In Israel, the day was for a long time reckoned from morning to morning...and it was in fact in the morning, with the creation of light, that the world began; the distinction of day and night, and time too, began on a morning (Gen. 1:3-5, cf. 14:16, 18). The opposite conclusion has been drawn from the refrain which punctuates the story of creation: “There was an evening and there was a morning, the first, second, etc., day”; This phrase, however, coming after the description of each creative work (which clearly happens during the period of light), indicates rather the vacant time till the morning, the end of a day and the beginning of the next work...The change of reckoning must there fore have taken place between the end of the monarchy and the age of Nehemias... this would bring us to the beginning of the exile..." (Ancient Israel, p.181-182).

"That the custom of reckoning the day as beginning in the evening and lasting until the following evening was probably of late origin is shown by the phrase "tarry all night" (Jdg 19:6-9); the context shows that the day is regarded as beginning in the morning; in the evening the day "declined," and until the new day (morning) arrived it was necessary to "tarry all night" (compare also Num 11:32)" (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)

"in the second Temple, throughout its entire existence, the practice seems to have been in all ritual matters to reckon the day from dawn to dawn, and not according to the later practice, from sunset to sunset...even the rabbis, who, themselves, reckoned the day from sunset to sunset, and refused to admit the legitimacy of any other practice, or rather, absolutely ignored all divergent practice, none the less had to admit the validity of the interpretation of Lev. 7:15... the day was at one time reckoned from sunrise to sunrise... The earlier practice, which continued until the time of the secondary strata of the Priestly code, was to reckon the day from dawn to dawn... The later practice was to reckon the day from sunset to sunset... It was probably coincident with the revision of the festival calendar, which took place in the period after the time of Ezra, and was, in all probability, the work of the soferim or of the Great Synod in the fourth century B.C. This may also be inferred from the statement in the Talmud (Berachoth 33a) that the men of the Great Synod instituted the ceremonies of Kiddush and Havdalah, the solemn sanctification of the Sabbath on Friday eve, and its equally solemn ushering out on Saturday eve, in other words, ceremonies specifically marking the beginning and close of the Sabbath as at sunset. These were ceremonies for the Jewish home instead of the Temple. This, coupled with the fact that in the second Temple the old system of reckoning the day from dawn to dawn continued to be observed, as we have seen, may perhaps indicate that this entire innovation was the work of an anti-priestly group or party in the Great Synod..." (The Sources of the Creation Story - Gen. 1:1- 2:4, p. 169-212)

After years of teaching that the day starts at sunrise and that Jesus died on Passover Day on the 14th & died the day after Passover on the 15th, I finally come across this ADDITIONAL confirmation and proof this week.
In the John MacArthur NASB Study Bible, Copyright 1997, 2006 in the Introduction to "The Gospel According to John", within the section "Interpretive Challenges", pages 2155-2156, it says, (With inserting my corrections to his timeline in italics)
QUOTE: "The chronological reckoning between John's gospel and the synoptics presents a challenge,especially in relation to the time of the Last Supper (13:2). While the synoptics portray the disciples and the Lord at the Last Supper as eating the Passover meal on Thursday (my note: Tuesday) evening, Nisan 14, and Jesus being crucified on Friday (my note: Wednesday), John's gospel states that the Jesus did not enter into the Praetorium "so that they would not be defiled, but might eat the Passover" (18:28). So, the disciples had eaten the Passover on Thursday evening (my note Tuesday), but the Jews had not. In fact, John (19:14) states that Jesus' trial and crucifixion were on the day of Preparation for the Passover and not after the eating of the Passover, so that with the trial and crucifixion on Friday (my note: Wednesday) Christ was actually sacrificed at the same time the Passover lambs were being slain (19:14). The question is, "Why did the disciples eat the Passover mean on Thursday?" (my note: Tuesday)
The answer lies in the difference among the Jews in the way they reckoned the beginning and ending of days. From Josephus, the Mishna, and other ancient Jewish sources we learn that the Jews in northern Palestine calculated days from sunrise to sunrise. That area included the region of Galilee, where Jesus and all the disciples, except Judas, had grown up. Apparently most, if not all, of the Pharisees used that system of reckoning. (my note: I disagree. I believe the Pharisees used sunset to sunset) But the Jews in the southern part which centered in Jerusalem, calculated days from sunset to sunset. Because all the priests necessarily lived in or near Jerusalem, as did most of the Sadducees (my note: Pharisees), those groups followed the southern scheme".
... "On that basis the seeming contradictions in the gospel accounts are easily explained. Being Galileans, Jesus and this disciples considered Passover day to have started at sunrise on Thursday (My note: Tuesday, the 14th) and to end at sunrise on Friday (My note: Wednesday, the 15th). The Jewish leaders who arrested and tried Jesus, being mostly priests and Sadducees (my note: Pharisees), considered Passover day to being at sunset on Thursday (my note: Wednesday) and end at sunset on Friday (my note: Thursday)". UNQUOTE.
Online, John MacArther says:
http://www.gty.org/blog/B130327
"In an interesting example of God’s sovereignty, Christ and His disciples were celebrating the Passover a night before most of the rest of Jerusalem. Galilean Jews observed Passover on Thursday night, since they marked their day from sunrise to sunrise. The Judean Jews marked their day from sunset to sunset, so their Passover would follow on Friday evening. It’s important to recognize the two authorized and legitimate celebrations, since they allowed for our Lord to celebrate the Passover one night and be the Passover Lamb the next".
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Print/Sermons/41-73
"This takes place, as you know, on Thursday night of Passion Week. It is in the Jewish calendar the fourteenth of Nisan, year 30 A.D. And on that Thursday night is the Passover celebration for all of the Galilean Jews. In the Galilee, they celebrated their Passover on Thursday because they mark the Passover day from sunrise to sunrise. The Judean Jews in the south celebrated their Passover on Friday because they marked the Passover day from sunset to sunset. This difference we know from the writings of the Jewish Mishnah which are the official documents concerning the conduct of the Jews, and also from the history of Josephus. That’s important because that allowed our Lord to celebrate the Passover on Thursday night for a lot of critical reasons and still be the Passover on Friday, because they were two authorized and legitimate celebrations".

http://www.isawthelightministries.com/daystarts.html

You dont think jewish traditions are changed?

From little things like adding wine to the passover meal to the bigger things like adding Purim.

But Scripture > jewish tradition...
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
It’s even simpler than that.

The darkness before the light was not called night...it even rhymes...no night without light...

See? much easier than trying to force man’s tradition on it...

If you were right it would say there was darkness after the light but it doesn't, it says the darkness over the deep was before the light and immediately after God created the light God saw the light was good and he separated them calling the light “day,” and the darkness “night.”

You are literally twisting scripture.
 

clefty

New member
If you were right it would say there was darkness after the light but it doesn't, it says the darkness over the deep was before the light and immediately after God created the light God saw the light was good and he separated them calling the light “day,” and the darkness “night.”

You are literally twisting scripture.

I think you misread what I wrote...

Maybe because it rhymed?

Here try it again:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day."

So there we begin...the heavens and earth were created...then a description of the earth...and of darkness over the deep...and the Spirit over the waters...THEN He spoke...and then there was light...and then He saw it was good...notice how the narrative is all in subsequent order...first this then something else then something more again...and then more added to what happened previously...

Well after the light was created and then it is seen as good and then it is separated from the darkness and then it is called Day...and now FINALLY the darkness is called night (see? AFTER the light is created seen as good seperated from darkness and called day!!)

and now read carefully what follows "and there was evening" see? AFTER the light is created called good seperated from darkness and called day...at this point we are in the daytime portion (the portion full of light)...And there was evening...

Evenings need light...a diminishing light yes but still light...mornings need light an increasing light...the original darkness had neither evening nor morning...it was darkness then BAAM! light

But after light there was an evening and that evening turned into darkness but NOW called night...and then night into morning...finally named and numbered as day one--the first Day completed...the next verse is the next act of creation on the second day and then another evening into night into morning then that day completed and numbered the second day...

The first chapter of Genesis ends on the morning of the seventh day...and being completed, the sixth day is finally numbered.

His work is completed now by the seventh DAY not evening and the night time portion of it...the next daytime portion He rests does no work of creation on that day...
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
I think you misread what I wrote...

Maybe because it rhymed?

Here try it again:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day."

So there we begin...the heavens and earth were created...then a description of the earth...and of darkness over the deep...and the Spirit over the waters...THEN He spoke...and then there was light...and then He saw it was good...notice how the narrative is all in subsequent order...first this then something else then something more again...and then more added to what happened previously...

Well after the light was created and then it is seen as good and then it is separated from the darkness and then it is called Day...and now FINALLY the darkness is called night (see? AFTER the light is created seen as good seperated from darkness and called day!!)

and now read carefully what follows "and there was evening" see? AFTER the light is created called good seperated from darkness and called day...at this point we are in the daytime portion (the portion full of light)...And there was evening...

Evenings need light...a diminishing light yes but still light...mornings need light an increasing light...the original darkness had neither evening nor morning...it was darkness then BAAM! light

But after light there was an evening and that evening turned into darkness but NOW called night...and then night into morning...finally named and numbered as day one--the first Day completed...the next verse is the next act of creation on the second day and then another evening into night into morning then that day completed and numbered the second day...

The first chapter of Genesis ends on the morning of the seventh day...and being completed, the sixth day is finally numbered.

His work is completed now by the seventh DAY not evening and the night time portion of it...the next daytime portion He rests does no work of creation on that day...

Twisty-Clefty
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Twisty-Clefty

Twisty has no idea who created darkness.

He believes everything was light before it got dark.

"And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." (John 1:5)

Jesus is the Light. Before Jesus is darkness, and then the Light.

You are wasting your time with Twisty.
 

clefty

New member
Twisty has no idea who created darkness.
the same Who called it night after light was created...

He believes everything was light before it got dark.
nope...clearly says it was dark and then came the light...but no morning or evening just darkness...on the face of the deep...but not called night...then came the light interrupting the darkness and then it was light but then came the evening as the light diminished and then it got dark again but now its named night not darkness...and then came morning...

"And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." (John 1:5)
darkness is like that...but darkness called night indicates a evening passed and the morning of the next day is coming

Jesus is the Light. Before Jesus is darkness, and then the Light.
a light without morning or evening...certainly not replacing a daytime known as Sabbath...

You are wasting your time with Twisty.
yes having to resort to name calling and ad homs indicates something has been settled...
 

clefty

New member
Yes Twisty

Ok how about one from the OT:

1 Sam 19:11 Saul also sent messengers to David’s house to watch him and to kill him in the morning. And Michal, David’s wife, told him, saying, "If you do not save your life tonight, tomorrow you will be killed."

And one from the NT:

Acts 4:3 "And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening."


And another good study:

http://www.knowbibletruth.com/whendoesthesabbathdaybeginandend.html



Or continue to resort to silly ad homs...
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
Ok how about one from the OT:

1 Sam 19:11 Saul also sent messengers to David’s house to watch him and to kill him in the morning. And Michal, David’s wife, told him, saying, "If you do not save your life tonight, tomorrow you will be killed."

And one from the NT:

Acts 4:3 "And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening."


And another good study:

http://www.knowbibletruth.com/whendoesthesabbathdaybeginandend.html



Or continue to resort to silly ad homs...

The fact you think these verses, that are even more ambiguous than the ones we have discussed, could help your argument just shows your lack of reasoning skills.

You hang everything on Jesus saying 'aren't there 12 hours in a day' but you take that out of context and build a theology on it. Look at it all:

John 11
8“But Rabbi,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?” 9Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. 10It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”

What Jesus was saying that you can only work in the day and not by night:

John 9:4
1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

BUT these verses have two meanings, Jesus was using night and day when people work and sleep as a analogy for this current age (the church age) and the age to come after the final judgement when it will not be possible to do God's work and be saved.

Night also has 12 hours = 24 hours
 

clefty

New member
The fact you think these verses, that are even more ambiguous than the ones we have discussed, could help your argument just shows your lack of reasoning skills.
lack of reasoning skills? Ouch...how are these ambiguous? If sunset begins a new day and not the morning then David's wife should have said "if you dont save yourself tonight, LATER today (or today) you will be killed". Paul was arrested at night and held until the NEXT day...morning...not held until later that day...

You hang everything on Jesus saying 'aren't there 12 hours in a day' but you take that out of context and build a theology on it.
nope just showed you that the 24 hour day was counted not the daylight or night time portions...what was that about reasoning skills?

As for a theology on it...its not that big a deal is it? Or is it?

Look at it all:

John 11
8“But Rabbi,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?” 9Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. 10It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”

What Jesus was saying that you can only work in the day and not by night:

John 9:4
1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

BUT these verses have two meanings, Jesus was using night and day when people work and sleep as a analogy for this current age (the church age) and the age to come after the final judgement when it will not be possible to do God's work and be saved.

Night also has 12 hours = 24 hours
yup...ok

And what? Here we still are.... When does the biblical 24 hour day begin?

Day becomes evening evening becomes night night becomes morning--the day is finally counted as complete...just like a birthday you live the year first then count it or a mile...you travel the mile first then number it...
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
lack of reasoning skills? Ouch...how are these ambiguous? If sunset begins a new day and not the morning then David's wife should have said "if you dont save yourself tonight, LATER today (or today) you will be killed". Paul was arrested at night and held until the NEXT day...morning...not held until later that day...

1 Sam 19:11 Saul also sent messengers to David’s house to watch him and to kill him in the morning. And Michal, David’s wife, told him, saying, "If you do not save your life tonight, tomorrow you will be killed."

Now if I said to you:

"Clefy, are you going to go out tonight or tomorrow?"

Can you tell from that sentence if I have described when a Biblical day begins or ends or even a non-Biblical secular day? It doesn't does it. You can't tell because the semantics don't allow for that.

Neither does this:

Acts 4:3 "And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening."

Sometimes the truth hurts; Ouch.
 

clefty

New member
1 Sam 19:11 Saul also sent messengers to David’s house to watch him and to kill him in the morning. And Michal, David’s wife, told him, saying, "If you do not save your life tonight, tomorrow you will be killed."

Now if I said to you:

"Clefy, are you going to go out tonight or tomorrow?"

Can you tell from that sentence if I have described when a Biblical day begins or ends or even a non-Biblical secular day? It doesn't does it. You can't tell because the semantics don't allow for that.

Neither does this:

Acts 4:3 "And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening."

Sometimes the truth hurts; Ouch.

Lol..wow really?...of course it does...if I asked my co worker "wanna go out tonight?" that would mean after work THAT day we would go out...and if I asked "wanna go out tomorrow?" That would mean the plan was after work the NEXT day...also known as tomorrow...

Never have I asked my Jewish coworker friend "do you want to go out after work today?" and and hear him say "no sorry I already have plans for tomorrow after work today"
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
Lol..wow really?...of course it does...if I asked my co worker "wanna go out tonight?" that would mean after work THAT day we would go out...and if I asked "wanna go out tomorrow?" That would mean the plan was after work the NEXT day...also known as tomorrow...

Never have I asked my Jewish coworker friend "do you want to go out after work today?" and and hear him say "no sorry I already have plans for tomorrow after work today"

Yes of course but that's because your 'friend' is assuming you are using today's secular calendar but what we are debating is what was the assumption in Israel 2000+ years ago about when the Biblical day began. The fact you can't even understand this, is more evidence to why your reasoning skills are so poor and why you have the wrong understand as to why the Biblical day starts at sunset.
 

clefty

New member
Yes of course but that's because your 'friend' is assuming you are using today's secular calendar but what we are debating is what was the assumption in Israel 2000+ years ago about when the Biblical day began. The fact you can't even understand this, is more evidence to why your reasoning skills are so poor and why you have the wrong understand as to why the Biblical day starts at sunset.

Oh my...why so hostile?...

You proposed "Clefy are you going out tonight or tomorrow?" as being a sentence one cannot determine when the day ends biblical or secular...but in using "or" there you set the criteria that tonight is not the same day as tomorrow...which is also true in the Bible...the irony...

From John 6:

16 Now when evening cameHis disciples went down to the sea, 17 got into the boat, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was already dark, and Jesus had not come to them. 18 Then the sea arose because a great wind was blowing. 19 So when they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near the boat; and they were afraid. 20 But He said to them, “It is I; do not be afraid.” 21 Then they willingly received Him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land where they were going.

22 On the following day, when the people who were standing on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other boat there, except that one which His disciples had entered, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with His disciples, but His disciples had gone away alone— 23 however, other boats came from Tiberias, near the place where they ate bread after the Lord had given thanks— 24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You come here?'"

now if a new day starts at evening when the sun sets...the following day would have begun that evening...and it would be the same day the disciples set out into the lake and that the people realized there had only been one boat...all occuring on the same day...but it is not written that way is it?

But "now when evening came" not the next day here...as "the following day" is a another day...

One can easily imagine a disciple asking Yahushua that evening "master are you sure you want to go out into the lake tonight or wait til tomorrow?" Meaning two different days...
 

clefty

New member
There is a huge amount of confusion here. One must be extremely careful when interpreting the texts.
"Day" often mean "daytime.
"Tomorrow" often means "the next daytime"
What is really of interest is how the Jews counted their days- specifically the holidays. That has been from evening to evening, starting from Biblical times, and continuing to this day. Unless there is some rock-solid evidence that we have changed our custom at some point in history, one should assume that the Jewish tradition hasn't changed.

"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men." Acts 5:29
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
Oh my...why so hostile?...

You proposed "Clefy are you going out tonight or tomorrow?" as being a sentence one cannot determine when the day ends biblical or secular...but in using "or" there you set the criteria that tonight is not the same day as tomorrow...which is also true in the Bible...the irony...

From John 6:

16 Now when evening cameHis disciples went down to the sea, 17 got into the boat, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was already dark, and Jesus had not come to them. 18 Then the sea arose because a great wind was blowing. 19 So when they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near the boat; and they were afraid. 20 But He said to them, “It is I; do not be afraid.” 21 Then they willingly received Him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land where they were going.

22 On the following day, when the people who were standing on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other boat there, except that one which His disciples had entered, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with His disciples, but His disciples had gone away alone— 23 however, other boats came from Tiberias, near the place where they ate bread after the Lord had given thanks— 24 when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. 25 And when they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You come here?'"

now if a new day starts at evening when the sun sets...the following day would have begun that evening...and it would be the same day the disciples set out into the lake and that the people realized there had only been one boat...all occuring on the same day...but it is not written that way is it?

But "now when evening came" not the next day here...as "the following day" is a another day...

One can easily imagine a disciple asking Yahushua that evening "master are you sure you want to go out into the lake tonight or wait til tomorrow?" Meaning two different days...

Not hostile just frustrated.

Just because it says 'The following day' does not mean the day starts at sun rise because as God says in Genesis He called the light day and therefore it is the following day, because day comes after night. Not day comes after yesterday!

You are confusing night and day with tomorrow and yesterday but this is because of:

Genesis 1
5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

Because God calls the light day and the 24 hour period also day, means we can't use verses like John 6:16-25 to determine when a day begins, and why the verses I gave, i.e. 'evening to evening' are the verses to use along with:

Nehemiah 13:19
So it was, at the gates of Jerusalem, as it began to be dark before the Sabbath, that I commanded the gates to be shut, and charged that they must not be opened till after the Sabbath. Then I posted some of my servants at the gates, so that no burdens would be brought in on the Sabbath day.

"This is the proof that the Sabbath starts at sunset and not day break. As soon as it turns dark, the gates are shut. It did not say "as soon as day break shut the gate."

Now does that make sense to you?
 

chair

Well-known member
only the day of the atonement...the other holidays do not...this day is not the standard but the different than the other...

You dont think jewish traditions are changed?

From little things like adding wine to the passover meal to the bigger things like adding Purim.

But Scripture > jewish tradition...

Nearly everything you posted (done very nicely, by the way, with sources indicated), is essentially speculation by various experts and academics. That the original must have been X then changed to Y. But no solid evidence of that.

And I did not say Jewish tradition never change. Of course it does! But generally we know when and what changed. These changes were not kept secret.

Purim, by the way, is Biblical. At least in my Bible. Maybe you meant Chanukah.
 

clefty

New member
Nearly everything you posted (done very nicely, by the way, with sources indicated),
just one copy cut paste on my part...

is essentially speculation by various experts and academics. That the original must have been X then changed to Y. But no solid evidence of that.
for your case or mine?

And I did not say Jewish tradition never change. Of course it does! But generally we know when and what changed. These changes were not kept secret.
yeah...ok

Purim, by the way, is Biblical. At least in my Bible. Maybe you meant Chanukah.
no...I meant Purim...a holiday jews gave themselves...Rome uses it to excuse her own establishment of worship on Sunday and other feast days...
 
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