What's the problem?

SOTK

SOTK

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Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the problem?

Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the problem?

Originally posted by Knight

The Open View does not reject predestination as it is overwhelmingly obvious that God predetermined certain things.

Yet the OV rejects that ALL THINGS (and every detail in-between) is directly decreed by God.

Let me illustrate the difference....

The Open View would state that God predestined that all in Christ will be considered holy and blameless before the Lord. God didn't predestine individuals to salvation but predestined corporately that the Body of Christ would be holy and blameless.

The Calvinist view is that God has predetermined specific individuals to be Holy and blameless therefore predestining specific individuals to damnation.
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That's interesting. What is meant by Closed View? Just the exact opposite?

Thanks for all the info, Knight! This is really helping me out. :)

In Christ,

SOTK
 
SOTK

SOTK

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Hey, thanks for all help with this everybody! I am gonna be gone for about an hour but will be back on here after that for more dialogue. I am at work right now. See ya in a few!

SOTK
 
C

Crow

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Re: Re: Re: What's the problem?

Re: Re: Re: What's the problem?

Originally posted by SOTK

Turbo,

Give me some time and I'll check out what you wrote and get back to you. So far, I do not agree with the notion that every wicked thing that happens is God's will. I also don't accept that God is immutable. I also don't think that God would purposely create someone to punish them.

I want it noted that I do believe in free will. I've heard some teachings where free will and pre-destination co-exist. I am still checking into this.

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions. This is helpful to me. :)

SOTK
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God does predestine some things. There are things that God tells us will or will not happen. He has predestined events described in Revelations, for example. Those events will happen.

But while God predestines some things, others are not. God does not predestine children to be molested. Evil acts are not acts of God but acts that arise from the condition of being separated from God.
 
Nathon Detroit

Nathon Detroit

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Originally posted by BillyBob
If you were 'completely separated' from God, what was the catalyst for your seeking him?

I ask because I have heard that it is He who makes us seek Him and if we are completely separated from Him, how could we respond?
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The Calvinsist would answer God decreed that you would or would not respond to Him.

The OV'er would respond that faith comes by hearing... hearing of the word of God. Which is why we are asked to... Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. - 2Timothy 4:2

To the Calvinist the above concept is entirely meaningless as it is not within us to convince anyone of anything.
 
Nathon Detroit

Nathon Detroit

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the problem?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the problem?

Originally posted by SOTK

That's interesting. What is meant by Closed View? Just the exact opposite?
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Yes the closed view i.e., Calvinism means that the future is closed to us and closed to God.

In the Open View the future is open to the extent God wants it to be open. (undetermined)
 
Sozo

Sozo

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Originally posted by SOTK

Does reveal Himself mean through the Bible, through Christ, through the inherent sense of right and wrong we are all born with (like what C.S. Lewis taught), or through all of the above?
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"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. "

There is much to be said concerning these verses, but one main point is clear, God has made Himself known.
I am wondering what it means "that we have no ability to conclude that we are dead unless God first makes us alive". Sozo, what do you think Calvinists mean by that?
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That He saves you (gives you His life), and then you believe.
 
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BillyBob

BillyBob

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Originally posted by Knight

The Calvinsist would answer God decreed that you would or would not respond to Him.
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That is absolutely illogical. If that is true, God has given some of us a certain, inevitable death sentence. Why would God deliberately choose that some predetermined people never know Him? What is the point of Salvation if it is only for the 'Preselected'?
 
C

Crow

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Originally posted by BillyBob

That is absolutely illogical. If that is true, God has given some of us a certain, inevitable death sentence. Why would God deliberately choose that some predetermined people never know Him? What is the point of Salvation if it is only for the 'Preselected'?
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That's essentially the same reason I can't buy into Calvinism.
 
Nathon Detroit

Nathon Detroit

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Originally posted by BillyBob

That is absolutely illogical. If that is true, God has given some of us a certain, inevitable death sentence. Why would God deliberately choose that some predetermined people never know Him? What is the point of Salvation if it is only for the 'Preselected'?
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And now you see why we argue with people like Jim Hilston, natewood, Swordsman, Z Man and the like.

Wacky ain't it?
 
BillyBob

BillyBob

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Originally posted by Knight


The OV'er would respond that faith comes by hearing... hearing of the word of God. Which is why we are asked to... Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. - 2Timothy 4:2
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You know, I have read this Scripture before, but it never took hold. This is strong.....
 
C

Crow

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Y'all might want to consider dropping 50 bucks for The Plot, BillyBob. You ain't seen nuthing yet.
 
Clete

Clete

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Re: What's the problem?

SOTK,

As has been pointed out already Calvinism makes God out to be an unjust stone idol. Of course they would never use those terms but I believe they are accurate nonetheless.
As to the theology of Calvinism itself, it can most easily be shown to be false by examining the presuppositions which lead to the conclusions that Calvin made when formulating his theology, the main one of which is the idea that God is immutable. Calvin believed that God was utterly and totally and absolutely immutable in every conceivably possible way, as did Luther before him, and Augustine before him, and Plato before him!
Bob Hill has written many articles on the subject of Calvinism. The one entitled The Immutability of God is an excellent one to start with. You can go here for a terrific list of articles all about Calvinism with Biblical arguments as to why it simply cannot be true.

I hope you take the time to read at least that first article I linked to and will look forward to your response!

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
Lovejoy

Lovejoy

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Hi guys. A while ago, a friend of mine who is knows a bit of Greek offered me this interpretation of "predestine."

What I do know is that their understanding of "predestination" as it is taught in the Bible is wrong. I do not know the full breadth and width of their theology, nor the full implications of how their missunderstanding has effected their doctrines.

The word translated "predestined" is prooridzo. It literally means "to mark out a boundry in advance," and in practical meaning, that is "to plan in advance." It is derived from a verb that means "to mark out a boundry," from which we get our word "horizon" (as in, the horizon is the "boundry" or "limit" of how far we can see). The idea of "marking a boundry" has the meaning of "planning" in everyday language from the idea that a plan is something that metaphorically "draws a boundry around, or sets the limits of" our future actions.

The problem is that in ENGLISH, predestine means that what has been planned in advance WILL HAPPEN. There is nothing we can do about it. If God predestines something, it WILL happen.

That is NOT what this word means. It contains no inherent concept that the plan or boundaries that are drawn in advance WILL happen. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. God has made a plan for our lives, WAY in advance of when we were even born. We can fulfill that plan, or we can reject God, and miss that plan.

Because of the "predestination" versus "free will" argument, most people think the two are contradictory (if one is true, the other cannot be true).

The irony is that "free will" and "predestination" go hand in hand. When God "predestined" us to be conformed to the image of His Son, we are told that He has made a wonderful plan for our lives to be LIKE His Son. We have the free will to accept or reject that plan.

So all "predestine" means is "to plan in advance."

There are times that God predestines (plans in advance) something to happen, and then takes a direct hand in human affairs to make sure it happens as he planned. In the scriptures, these are global events, not the fate of individual lives.

Examples of these would be Jesus coming in the flesh, dying on the cross, rising from the grave: all for the salvation of all of humanity. Those were things that God pre-planned, and then stepped in and took an active hand to make sure they happened as planned, so that humanity could be redeemed. We will see more of that in the end times with the Antichrist, the return of our Lord Jesus, and the establishment of the kingdom of God forever.
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I am sure this ground has been covered a thousand times, but I always like to muddy the waters a bit more...
 
C

Crow

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Originally posted by Lovejoy

Hi guys. A while ago, a friend of mine who is knows a bit of Greek offered me this interpretation of "predestine."



I am sure this ground has been covered a thousand times, but I always like to muddy the waters a bit more...
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You're not muddying the waters. That's essentially what I believe. That God desires all men to come to Him, but He has deliberately left that choice to them. And that there are things God has said that He will do regardless of any human behavior, and He does them.
 
SOTK

SOTK

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the problem?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the problem?

Originally posted by Knight

Yes the closed view i.e., Calvinism means that the future is closed to us and closed to God.

In the Open View the future is open to the extent God wants it to be open. (undetermined)
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This is where I get confused with Calvinism. Part of the Calvinistic view is that God exists outside of Time and Space. He is not held to linear time as we know it. God is Omnipresent, Omniscient, etc. I am sure that I have read this in my research in learning Calvinism. If this is true, how then can the future be closed to God? Wouldn't the future be open to God as he can freely move between past, present, and future? Unless I am completely misunderstanding aspects of pre-destination, Calvinists use God's ability to move freely back and forth as their contention that He knows when we accep Jesus Christ as our Savior. I realize that this isn't the complete view of Calvinistic pre-destination, but just given this aspect, how can the future be closed at all?
 
Lovejoy

Lovejoy

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Thanks Crow. Yeah, that guy (from a different forum) has a way of phrasing things. He says what many of us believe, but puts it in a very convincing way.
 
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