What's the problem?

[SOTK]

Before I begin what I want to say, I must admit that I am new to learning about Calvinism. I just recently started reading and studying about this so please excuse my ignorance....I'm learning.

I became interested in Calvinism a few weeks ago when it was mentioned by an Adult Bible Fellowship Group leader at my church. We are currently going through a Forgiveness workshop in this class. The subject of Total Depravity came up in this discussion and the leader of this study mentioned that as North American Baptists we subscribe to Calvinism. He didn't mention that we subscribe to the whole TULIP theology so I am not sure yet if we do or not. My wife and I are set to take our church's Member 101 class in a few weeks so I hope to learn more there and hope to get some questions answered. Also, I recently got a hold of the North American Baptist Mission Statement and the doctrine that they subscribe to. What was interesting about this is that there was a lot of emphasis placed on Grace which is what I personally subscribe to when it comes to salvation. As I say, I have more studying to do about Calvinism but it seems to me that Grace can work within the theology of Calvinism.

I am not sure yet if I agree with everything in the TULIP scheme but I do find myself agreeing with a lot of it especially Total Depravity. I am just wondering what the big deal is with those of you who seem to hate this theology so much. Is it the Grace aspect that I mentioned? Is it Pre-Destination? If it's Pre-Destination, I think I can understand because that is a hard subject for me also although I am beginning to comprehend so to speak.

I apologize if a lot of this has already been covered. I am just wanting to learn about this and interested why it seems to be despised so much here at TOL.

Thanks.

SOTK

 

[Sozo]

Man is not so depraved that God places him in a position where he does not see his need for a savior. Although Calvinists think that we are braindead (which seems to be the norm for them), God has made it evident to ALL men that He is righteous, that we are not, and that we need His righteousness.

 

[Turbo]

Re: What's the problem?

Originally posted by SOTK

I am not sure yet if I agree with everything in the TULIP scheme but I do find myself agreeing with a lot of it especially Total Depravity.

A while back I posted this argument against total depravity. I'd be interested to hear what you think of it.

I am just wondering what the big deal is with those of you who seem to hate this theology so much.

• God is holy, but Calvinists teach that everything wicked thing that happens is God's will.
  
• God is just, but Calvinists teach that God creates some people just so He can punish them for things He forces* them to do.
  
• God is living, but Calvinists teach that God is utterly immutable, incapable of changing in any way, which effectively makes God a stone idol.
  
  *Some of them don't like to use the word "forces," but I don't see how that word is innacurate according to their view.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

SOTK, do you think there is hope for all men, or is Christ's work on the cross only available to some people?

 

[Sozo]

Re: Re: What's the problem?

Re: Re: What's the problem?

Originally posted by Knight

I am going to break this out into its own thread. I hope you don't mind.

What? Again? :doh:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Re: Re: What's the problem?

Re: Re: Re: What's the problem?

Originally posted by Sozo

What? Again? :doh:

What? I think this deserves its own thread don't you?

 

[BillyBob]

Isn't it already in it's own thread?

 

[Sozo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the problem?

Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the problem?

Originally posted by Knight

What? I think this deserves its own thread don't you?

But you already did that, right? It's like deja vu all over again! :dizzy:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the problem?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What's the problem?

Originally posted by Sozo

But you already did that, right? It's like deja vu all over again! :dizzy:

I did? When?

 

[SOTK]

Originally posted by Knight

SOTK, do you think there is hope for all men, or is Christ's work on the cross only available to some people?

I think there is hope for all men, however, there are men who won't accept Christ's salvation no matter how well Christians witness nor how much the Truth is slapping them in the face. Is this God's will? I don't think so.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by SOTK

I think there is hope for all men, however, there are men who won't accept Christ's salvation no matter how well Christians witness nor how much the Truth is slapping them in the face. Is this God's will? I don't think so.

I agree but.... Calvinist doctrine teaches otherwise.

 

[SOTK]

Originally posted by Sozo

Man is not so depraved that God places him in a position where he does not see his need for a savior.

I agree with this.

Originally posted by Sozo
Although Calvinists think that we are braindead (which seems to be the norm for them), God has made it evident to ALL men that He is righteous, that we are not, and that we need His righteousness.

I am not sure if Calvinists think we are "braindead". At least, this is not how it was explained to me by the Leader of the study in which I attended. Rather, that we inherited the Original Sin from Adam. Sin that completely and utterly seperates us from God and could be described as being spiritually dead. Spiritually dead in that this Sin is so terrible that we completely require the Salvation of Christ to be alive. I agree with this. I look back on how I was before I became a Christian and recognize what scum I was.

I agree with you that only Christ is righteous and that we need His righteousness desperately.

SOTK

 

[BillyBob]

Are you saying that we are 'completely separated' from God?

 

[SOTK]

Re: Re: What's the problem?

Re: Re: What's the problem?

Originally posted by Turbo

A while back I posted this argument against total depravity. I'd be interested to hear what you think of it.

• God is holy, but Calvinists teach that everything wicked thing that happens is God's will.
  
• God is just, but Calvinists teach that God creates some people just so He can punish them for things He forces* them to do.
  
• God is living, but Calvinists teach that God is utterly immutable, incapable of changing in any way, which effectively makes God a stone idol.
  
  *Some of them don't like to use the word "forces," but I don't see how that word is innacurate according to their view.

Turbo,

Give me some time and I'll check out what you wrote and get back to you. So far, I do not agree with the notion that every wicked thing that happens is God's will. I also don't accept that God is immutable. I also don't think that God would purposely create someone to punish them.

I want it noted that I do believe in free will. I've heard some teachings where free will and pre-destination co-exist. I am still checking into this.

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions. This is helpful to me.

SOTK

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by SOTK
Rather, that we inherited the Original Sin from Adam. Sin that completely and utterly seperates us from God and could be described as being spiritually dead. Spiritually dead in that this Sin is so terrible that we completely require the Salvation of Christ to be alive. I agree with this.

I agree with this as well.

Calvinists take this a step further however in that man cannot even make the choice that He needs and wants God and God Himself picks and choses certain men to receive grace and therefore chooses that all the rest have no hope.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by SOTK

Spiritually dead in that this Sin is so terrible that we completely require the Salvation of Christ to be alive.

Calvinism teaches that we are not just spiritually dead (separated from the life of God), but that we have no ability to conclude that we are dead unless God first makes us alive. But Romans 1 says that All men are without excuse, because He has revealed Himself to ALL men.

 

[SOTK]

Originally posted by BillyBob

Are you saying that we are 'completely separated' from God?

I am saying that I was completely separated from God before I became a Christian, yes. Am I now? No, not at all!! I am alive in Christ!

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Re: Re: What's the problem?

Re: Re: Re: What's the problem?

Originally posted by SOTK
I've heard some teachings where free will and pre-destination co-exist. I am still checking into this.

The Open View does not reject predestination as it is overwhelmingly obvious that God predetermined certain things.

Yet the OV rejects that ALL THINGS (and every detail in-between) is directly decreed by God.

Let me illustrate the difference....

The Open View would state that God predestined that all in Christ will be considered holy and blameless before the Lord. God didn't predestine individuals to salvation but predestined corporately that the Body of Christ would be holy and blameless.

The Calvinist view is that God has predetermined specific individuals to be Holy and blameless therefore predestining specific individuals to damnation.

 

[SOTK]

Originally posted by Sozo

Calvinism teaches that we are not just spiritually dead (separated from the life of God), but that we have no ability to conclude that we are dead unless God first makes us alive. But Romans 1 says that All men are without excuse, because He has revealed Himself to ALL men.

Does reveal Himself mean through the Bible, through Christ, through the inherent sense of right and wrong we are all born with (like what C.S. Lewis taught), or through all of the above?

Also, I am wondering what it means "that we have no ability to conclude that we are dead unless God first makes us alive". Sozo, what do you think Calvinists mean by that?

SOTK

 

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by SOTK

I am saying that I was completely separated from God before I became a Christian, yes. Am I now? No, not at all!! I am alive in Christ!

You guys are much more theologically learned than I am, but I have a sincere question about this:

If you were 'completely separated' from God, what was the catalyst for your seeking him?

I ask because I have heard that it is He who makes us seek Him and if we are completely separated from Him, how could we respond?

[I know I can be a smartass, but I really am interested in this]