What's calvinism?

[Clete]

Originally posted by lee_merrill
I agree! You are missing my point. I'm not saying that God doesn't know (future) motives. I'm just wondering if he can be said to be the primary cause of them.

Blessings,
Lee

Motive and action go together. You simple cannot have the latter without the former unless the action is involuntary in which case the question of guilt is moot because involuntary actions have no moral implications.

And while you may not be saying that God does not know future motivations, I am saying that. If God knows the future (exhaustively) then freedom is an illusion and the question of motives becomes moot because our action are in effect, involuntary, which in turn renders the question of guilt moot as well.

So you see, whichever way you slice it, you cannot have one without the other, if God predestined the actions then there is no sense in saying that He didn't predestine the motivations for those same actions. If you do, the basic result is to render the words "motivation" and “guilt” meaningless.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Motive and action go together. You simple cannot have the latter without the former unless the action is involuntary in which case the question of guilt is moot because involuntary actions have no moral implications.

And while you may not be saying that God does not know future motivations, I am saying that. If God knows the future (exhaustively) then freedom is an illusion and the question of motives becomes moot because our action are in effect, involuntary, which in turn renders the question of guilt moot as well.

So you see, whichever way you slice it, you cannot have one without the other, if God predestined the actions then there is no sense in saying that He didn't predestine the motivations for those same actions. If you do, the basic result is to render the words "motivation" and “guilt” meaningless.

Resting in Him,
Clete

If our choices are always sinful ones, then our will is biased against God. We have a sinful will, not a neutral will. Our will is in bondage to our sinful heart. In our heart of hearts, we are sinners—sin does not reside merely in some peripheral part of us, but in the innermost "me". The inner essence that distinguishes me from the next person is a sin-loving, God-hating creature who freely chooses to sin whenever an opportunity to obey is presented to it. While we may do "good works" that are applauded by men, God sees the motives of our hearts, and He knows that even our best works are motivated by sinful pride, by a desire to receive the approval of others, or an attempt to numb ourselves to the guilt we rightly feel for the many sins we have committed in the past. -Mike Cervinka

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi Clete,

... if God predestined the actions then there is no sense in saying that He didn't predestine the motivations for those same actions. If you do, the basic result is to render the words "motivation" and “guilt” meaningless.

I don't think so, though! We (probably) have all heard the story of the little boy who was told to sit down, and he sat down, but protested "but I'm still standing up on the inside"!

The teacher caused the boy to sit down, but didn't cause the motive. But that doesn't render "motive" meaningless.

Here is more specifically what I wonder about:

GE 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good.

God caused the action, did he cause the motive, too? I think you can make a case for that for believers:

PHP 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

I don't know any verses like this about unbelievers, though...

Blessings,
Lee

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by lee_merrill

Hi Clete,



I don't think so, though! We (probably) have all heard the story of the little boy who was told to sit down, and he sat down, but protested "but I'm still standing up on the inside"!

The teacher caused the boy to sit down, but didn't cause the motive. But that doesn't render "motive" meaningless.

Here is more specifically what I wonder about:

GE 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good.

God caused the action, did he cause the motive, too? I think you can make a case for that for believers:

PHP 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

I don't know any verses like this about unbelievers, though...

Blessings,
Lee

Common Grace

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ina Manly Painter
June 25, 2002


"The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works" Ps.145:9 KJV.

The blessings of the Holy Spirit's common, ordinary grace
are extended to the Christian,
as well as to the non-Christian,
being "those general blessings which God imparts to all men
without any distinction as He sees fit."1

Upon the non-Christian, God showers natural, general blessings--
air to breathe and water to drink,
as well as blessings in particular.2
He provides family, fruitful seasons, success
and a degree of pleasure in this world.3

God enables the non-Christian to live in the enjoyment of His creation
prospering from his God-given abilities,
sharing in the natural, universal benefits,
as given by the Creator, for all His creatures.

In common grace God arouses deeds of kindness
and relative goodness in mankind.4
He often restrains the extent and degree of sin
thwarting evil intentions and contrived wickedness.
He brings about a rational fervor for civil order,
outward morality and decency toward others.

Because of common grace, the non-Christian is deceived,
taking pride in being looked after by "the man upstairs,"
reasoning that a God who counts him worthy to receive earthly benefits
would surely not deny him the bliss of heaven.

While it is possible to resist God's common grace
and despise the riches of His goodness,
that common, natural grace, without God's irresistible special grace
will accompany that individual to the threshold of everlasting torment.5

Notes

1. Louis Berkhof, Summary of Christian Doctrine (1938:reprint, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1977), 121.
2. Matt.5:44,45.
3. Acts 14:17.
4. Luke 6:33.
5. John 3:16; Rom.6:23; Eph.2:8,9; John 5:14; Acts 3:19.

 

[smaller]

Oh come on John, don't pretend you believe this:

"The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works" Ps.145:9 KJV.

Under Calvinistic positions many such texts MUST be changed to read as follows:

"The Lord is good to ONLY THE ELECT: and His tender mercies are over ONLY THE ELECT as the majority were made for Him to eternally torture in fire so His eternal tender mercies for the unbeliever are temporal and without ANY SIGNIFICANT OR LASTING effect."

The God you present is FAR FAR FAR from the Sovereign One. No more than a Divine Eternal Torturer who gives not even a CHANCE. More like a man who captures flies and proceeds to pull them apart, except without ending.

I would take the LOTTERY of FREEWILL over NO CHANCE wouldn't you??? At least one or two might be spared FROM THIS MONSTER you call god, that would not have made it otherwise.

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

GE 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good.

God caused the action, did he cause the motive, too? I think you can make a case for that for believers:

PHP 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

I don't know any verses like this about unbelievers, though...

I just thought of these verses, in this connection:

EX 9:12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart.
JOS 11:20 For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel.

Maybe that's not exactly motive, but it's certainly more than just causing an external action. So I think I shall step up and say that God does cause the motive, too.

This makes sense in considering Romans 9, too:

RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

Paul could have said, "But unbelievers are responsible for their motives, and thus God is just in blaming them." But he didn't say that! Instead he insists that God has a right to do what he pleases with us:

RO 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

And what he may be pleased to do, is to show mercy to everyone:

RO 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Now this could be "common grace", rain and sunshine, as John posted. But I think this is more than that, since the whole discussion about hardening and mercy was about election, about God choosing people to belong to him.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[LightSon]

Originally posted by John Reformed

Dispite doctrinal differences, there is only one true church. The TRUE church is composed of all those (regardless of denominational afilliation) who are "in Christ". I don't care how pure a person's doctrine is, if He is not "in Christ" he is a mere professor.

In this world you WILL have tribulation, but rejoice! for Christ has overcome the world!

The inward trials, that we all must endure, are a major component of sanctification; They come to make us strong. They are a blessing and an evidence of our salvation.

Psa 34:19 Many [are] the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.

May God give you the grace to wait upon Him.

John

Amen. And thank you!

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by smaller

Oh come on John, don't pretend you believe this:

"The Lord is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works" Ps.145:9 KJV.

Under Calvinistic positions many such texts MUST be changed to read as follows:

"The Lord is good to ONLY THE ELECT: and His tender mercies are over ONLY THE ELECT as the majority were made for Him to eternally torture in fire so His eternal tender mercies for the unbeliever are temporal and without ANY SIGNIFICANT OR LASTING effect."

The God you present is FAR FAR FAR from the Sovereign One. No more than a Divine Eternal Torturer who gives not even a CHANCE. More like a man who captures flies and proceeds to pull them apart, except without ending.

I would take the LOTTERY of FREEWILL over NO CHANCE wouldn't you??? At least one or two might be spared FROM THIS MONSTER you call god, that would not have made it otherwise.

Friend Smaller,

Your problem (at least as I see it) is that you percieve that eternal punishment as being inconsistant with justice. In this, you are not alone. To be open and honest with you, this doctrine does not rest easy on my mind either. But, as a Bible believing christian, I will not be moved to embrace any teaching which is not built on a solid scriptural foundation. This you have failed to provide.

Rather than appealing to God's inerrant Word, your appeal has been to frothy emotionalism, sarcasm, isolated verses and your own sense of right and wrong.

Let God be true and let every man be a liar.

I know nothing apart from what I have learned from His revelation to me. He is just and He is Holy. And if the wicked are consigned to eternal torment (which the Scripture plainly teaches), like it or not, it is the just thing to do.

Who are we to reply against God? It is always best to trust God's judgement and to mistrust our own.

John

 

[lost anomaly]

Getting of the topic of motive determining guilt........ and transistioning into Perseverance of Saints....

My friend showed me a passege in Hebrews 6:1-14. It came to mind in support of the calvinistic point of Perseverance of saints. Anybody agree?

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi Lost_anomaly,

My friend showed me a passage in Hebrews 6:1-14. It came to mind in support of the calvinistic point of Perseverance of saints. Anybody agree?

This is a difficult passage! Yes, I think there is assurance for believers here, even though there are strong warnings here, too:

HEB 6:9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation.

HEB 6:14 "I will surely bless you and give you many descendants."

And he applies this promise to the believers he is writing to, he says God's purpose for them will not change:

HEB 6:17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear...

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Clete]

Heb. 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

How do you possibly get eternal security from this passage? It obviously teaches the opposite! Why is it so difficult to just read the passage and take it to mean what it obviously says?

 

[Swordsman]

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

The context in which this is found takes into consideration that some Jews wanted to go back to the old ways of the Old Covenant with it's rules and regulations. To go back to the old and reject the New, which is the New Covenant in Christ, is to reject Jesus outright in favor of a more earthy approach to God.

After all you can't touch Jesus or see Him except by faith. But you can physically experience the Law. You could physically go to the temple. You could physically offer sacrifices. You could physically observe certain days as holy. You could physically partake in circumcision. It didn't take much faith to participate in the ritual aspect of Judaism. And so for many who longed for something they could touch and feel it was much easier and much more convenient to go back to the old ways.

But to go back to that which produced only death in favor of life in Christ reveals much about such a profession in the Messiah. It reveals there was no life at all if the life-giver can be rejected and turned away from that easily. Don't forget that what the author of Hebrews is talking about here is not a mere falling into sin or what some call backsliding (a man-defined term of sinning while having salvation), but rather a total willful rejection of Christ.

This passage is often used by those who preach conditional salvation. But, one of the first rules of Bible study is to take any particular verse or verses and study them in connection to the context in which they're found and if there still seems to be confusion allow God to explain Himself in other portions He's given us which relate to the same subject.

 

[Z Man]

Heb. 6:4
For it is impossible for those who ... fall away, to renew them again to repentance...

I've heard people use this verse to support that one can lose their salvation. But if you ask them if that person can become saved again, they would say yes, if they would only ask for forgiveness and repent, again. It's obvious that those who use this verse to support their false doctrine of "losing grace" do not consider the context in which the Scriptures speak. Heck, they don't even realize that if it did support their view, that there is no way anyone who "fell away from grace" could repent again. They just "choose" to ignore that part...

 

[lee_merrill]

Z Man: ... they don't even realize that if it did support their view, that there is no way anyone who "fell away from grace" could repent again.

That's a good point! This passage is speaking of impossibility in that area, and I think, also in this area:

HEB 6:6 because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again...

But I think he says that is impossible:

HEB 9:26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world.

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Clete]

Hebrews means what it says boys.

Hebrews was not written to the Body of Christ but to Jews saved under the previous dispensation of law. They could lose their salvation if they did not persevere to the end. This is not true of the Body of Christ, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

If you pay attention to who's being spoken to, you can pretty much always take the Bible at it face value and not have a problem. It's when you read other people's mail and apply it as if it was written to you, that you start getting into confusion such as you guys have displayed in these last few posts.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Hebrews means what it says boys.

Hebrews was not written to the Body of Christ but to Jews saved under the previous dispensation of law. They could lose their salvation if they did not persevere to the end. This is not true of the Body of Christ, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

I don't know quite how to respond to your statement. Frankly...I'm astounded! What you are claiming is that certain believers were saved but were not a part of the body of Christ.

Those Jews that readily displayed their faith in Christ did so, in recognition of the fact that their Messiah had come in the person of Jesus Himself. They heard the gospel and fled to Jesus for salvation.

Hbr 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];

Nowhere in the New Testament do we read of two classes of believers.

 

[Christian2]

There is two classes of believers. Some with a white stone (Rev. 2 and 3), some who keep the Word of His patience (Rev. 3.10), some who were watchful, some who were taken, others left Matt. 24.40-41, some who filled their vessels (Matt. 25.1-12), some who yield 7 different kinds of fruit in Matt. 13 (7 different levels of Christians), some who are closest to the Lord 144,000, some who are able to escape the time of testing (Luke 21.36), some who will sit on thrones to reign during the millennium, some who remain carnal, others spiritual, so God rewards in the millennium as well as rapturing at first rapture. There is never losing salvation and eternal life, but their is a falling in spiritual life which must be burnt off in the lake of fire and disciplined in outerdarkness after that.

Some will even reign over 5,3,1 cities (you know the parable).

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Christian2

There is two classes of believers. Some with a white stone (Rev. 2 and 3), some who keep the Word of His patience (Rev. 3.10), some who were watchful, some who were taken, others left Matt. 24.40-41, some who filled their vessels (Matt. 25.1-12), some who yield 7 different kinds of fruit in Matt. 13 (7 different levels of Christians), some who are closest to the Lord 144,000, some who are able to escape the time of testing (Luke 21.36), some who will sit on thrones to reign during the millennium, some who remain carnal, others spiritual, so God rewards in the millennium as well as rapturing at first rapture. There is never losing salvation and eternal life, but their is a falling in spiritual life which must be burnt off in the lake of fire and disciplined in outerdarkness after that.

Some will even reign over 5,3,1 cities (you know the parable).

Hey, :troy:! How many screen names you have here now?

 

[postrib]

Greetings in Jesus' name,

From post #377 in this thread:
". . . There is two classes of believers . . . "

The church is made up of all believers of all time, whether Jewish or Gentile (1 Corinthians 12:13), for there's only one faith, and only one body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which body is the church (Ephesians 1:22-23). Christians who will live to enter into the great tribulation will be members of the church, for they (like other Christians) will have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14), will have the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), and will die in the Lord (Revelation 14:13).

From post #377 in this thread:
". . . Rev. 3.10 . . . "

Revelation 3:10 is addressing only one of the seven first-century church congregations "in Asia" (Revelation 1:4, 11) regarding a first-century time of trial, just as Revelation 2:10 is addressing one of the first-century church congregations "in Asia" regarding a first-century time of trial. The first-century church of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:10) wasn't raptured out of the time of trial that came upon the world in the first century, yet they were still kept from that time of trial. The "keep from" (tereo ek) phrase used in Revelation 3:10 is used in John 17:15, where it's emphasized that we don't have to be taken out of the world in order for us to be kept from evil in the world.

From post #377 in this thread:
". . . some who were taken, others left . . . "

That will be fulfilled at the second coming, for in Matthew 24:39-41 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as in Matthew 24:29-31. There's no third coming. The elect won't be taken or left, but gathered together (Matthew 24:31). Unbelievers will either be taken to where the birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28; Revelation 19:21) or left alive (Zechariah 14:16-18). So the one taken, one left event is neither before the tribulation, nor does it refer to believers at all.

From post #377 in this thread:
". . . some who filled their vessels . . . "

The parable of the ten virgins relates to the second coming (Matthew 25:10). It in no way teaches a pre-trib rapture. Matthew 25:10 refers specifically to the marriage, which won't happen until the second coming (Revelation 19:7). There's no third coming.

From post #377 in this thread:
". . . Luke 21.36 . . . "

We are commanded to pray always that we might be accounted worthy to escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36). But Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-trib rapture because some will escape the coming tribulation by dying before it starts (Isaiah 57:1; compare 2 Chronicles 34:28), or by receiving miraculous protection on the earth during the tribulation (Revelation 12:14).

The Bible doesn't say that the rapture is for escape from the tribulation; rather it says that the rapture is for the gathering together of believers into the clouds to meet Christ in the air at His second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Mark 13:24-27).

From post #377 in this thread:
". . . at first rapture . . . "

In the Bible we see that no scripture says that the rapture will be before the tribulation. Mark 13:24-27 shows Jesus coming and gathering together His elect in the rapture after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to this same coming and gathering together (verse 1) and confirms that it can't happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13 confirms that we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we'll need patience and faith during that time.

-

May the Lord Jesus Christ reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by John Reformed

I don't know quite how to respond to your statement. Frankly...I'm astounded! What you are claiming is that certain believers were saved but were not a part of the body of Christ.

Those Jews that readily displayed their faith in Christ did so, in recognition of the fact that their Messiah had come in the person of Jesus Himself. They heard the gospel and fled to Jesus for salvation.

Hbr 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];

Nowhere in the New Testament do we read of two classes of believers.

Not two classes two groups; The Body of Christ and the Nation of Israel.
The Body of Christ and the Dispensation of the Grace of God did not begin until Paul was converted in Acts 9. Paul was the first to be saved by grace through faith ONLY. Prior to that, one was required to follow the Mosaic Law (be circumcised, etc).

Read this...

Testing The Things That Differ

Resting in Him,
Clete