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What Time Dilation ACTUALLY Is In Relativity (Hint: It has nothing to do with time)

Right Divider

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Time is the result of things that move and change. Time is not a thing in itself but time is not just a mere idea.
Time is NOT the "result" of anything. It is a convention for discussing the sequence and duration of events.
Time means everything does not happen all at once and space means everything does not happen all in the exact same place.
That is NOT what "time means". That is a lame idea Dave.
Time is not a thing in itself, something out there, that moves.
Correct. It is a convention for discussing the sequence and duration of events.
Space is where things move, also not a thing the moves.
Duh, Thanks Captain Obvious.
Movement is meaningless without understanding what does not move--is stationary, or at rest.
That is confused. Movement is a description of the location of two or more objects over time. A reference is chosen arbitrarily to describe that movement.
Are these 5 points absolutely true or not?
Not!
 

Derf

Well-known member
Four things....
...

Second, as Right Divider pointed out, time isn't measured that way. Indeed, if anything, it is entropy that is measured in terms of time, not the other way around.

Third, even if time were somehow measured that way, it would just be happenstance. In other words, whatever it was about entropy that you found to use as a clock, it would still just be a series of regularly occurring events that were being used, not entropy itself, per se.
It's not "measured" that way.

It's not "measured" that way ... so you're way off base.
It is, even if you don't recognize it. Think of an hourglass. Or a wind-up clock. Or a Timex. Or, especially, an atomic clock. All if them are measuring a steady progression of order to disorder.
Again, time is an idea... a concept. It is NOT a physical thing that changes with new creations.
I'm not disagreeing with that, but if time as we know it always involves a decrease in order, does such a concept exist in the new heavens and new earth? Maybe it does, and God has to periodically wind up the universe every so often.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Four things....

First, entropy, like time, is not an ontologically existent thing. It is an idea. There isn't any sort of physical stuff out there that is entropy. It's just a concept.

Second, as Right Divider pointed out, time isn't measured that way. Indeed, if anything, it is entropy that is measured in terms of time, not the other way around.

Third, even if time were somehow measured that way, it would just be happenstance. In other words, whatever it was about entropy that you found to use as a clock, it would still just be a series of regularly occurring events that were being used, not entropy itself, per se.

Fourth, we are given information in the bible of at least one major way in which time will be measured in heaven....

Revelation 22:2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.​
Such must be contrasted with:
Revelation 21:23 KJV — And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

"Months" is a lunar concept which only works with the sun, in our world. So your example proves my point.
 

Clete

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It is, even if you don't recognize it. Think of an hourglass. Or a wind-up clock. Or a Timex. Or, especially, an atomic clock. All if them are measuring a steady progression of order to disorder.
No, that is just a list of events that happen to be examples of things going from order to disorder and not all of them are even that (the oscillations measured by atomic clocks is literally atoms moving back and forth from a higher energy state to a lower one and back again).

You could just as easily list a set of events that happen to be going the other way. The gestation of a new baby, the process of crystallization, oil and water separating after being mixed, the formation of a galaxy, the magnetization of a lump of iron, the process of protein creation within a living cell, etc, etc, etc. Any one of which could be used as a tic or toc on a clock, some more usefully than others.

I'm not disagreeing with that, but if time as we know it always involves a decrease in order, does such a concept exist in the new heavens and new earth?
Entropy is only the tendency toward lower energy states. It does not state that everything always moves in that direction. Further, just because fires always eventually run out of fuel here in this physical universe doesn't imply that you couldn't ever have a fire burning in Heaven because there's no entropy and that therefore the fire couldn't ever be starved of fuel, nor does it mean that you'll be able to have a fire without providing fuel.

In short, Heaven will be a real place, Derf. When we are all finished eating at the feast on the Day of Redemption, there will be dishes to clean. The process may be different, but, one way or the other, the used dishes will have to be dealt with and the food we will have eaten isn't going to be forever inside our bellies either. It'll break down into nutrients leaving room for another meal on another day. The fruits that come ripe on the Tree of Life, a different fruit each month, won't just show up instantly ripe nor will they forever remain perfectly ripe, eventually stock piling into an infinitely large pile of uneaten, but perpetually ripe, fruit. In other words, processes will still take place in ways that are at least analogous to what we experience today.

Maybe it does, and God has to periodically wind up the universe every so often.
Perhaps. I see no reason to believe that entropy is a result of Adam's fall. Adam would have needed to eat before he sinned, as would have all the animals. Plants would have produced seed, and germinated and grown and then produced fruit before Adam fell or else there wouldn't have been any tending of the garden that needed done. It seems just as plausible to me that entropy is just the way things work and that an existence without it would be unworkable. That, however, is an assessment from within the paradigm of living in this physical universe. Our new existence may be sufficiently different that such observations and speculations are just an exercise in ignorance.
 
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Clete

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Such must be contrasted with:
Revelation 21:23 KJV — And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

"Months" is a lunar concept which only works with the sun, in our world. So your example proves my point.
The word "month" is just the sound we make to give name to a particular cycle. It happens to be the time it takes for the Moon to go through all of its phases. Revelation, as well as the rest of the bible, was written by and for human beings that understand what period of time a month represents and so it would be weird for John (or God) to use a different term other than "month" to give name to a period of time that was similar (for all we know identical) to a lunar month.

So, yes, there won't be a Sun or a Moon and so the term "lunar month" won't apply but that does not indicate or even imply that the period of time is dramatically different. In fact, there is good evidence to the contrary because Revelation 22:2 is a parallel verse to Ezekiel 47:12 which definitely could not have been referring to anything other than a normal lunar cycle based month.
 

Right Divider

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It is, even if you don't recognize it. Think of an hourglass. Or a wind-up clock. Or a Timex. Or, especially, an atomic clock. All if them are measuring a steady progression of order to disorder.
No, they are NOT! None of those things is "measuring entropy".

There is nothing more "disorderly" about the sand in the bottom of the hour glass than the top.
There is nothing more "disorderly" about the winding down of a spring in a Timex from it's wound up predecessor.
There is nothing more "disorderly" about the later vibrations of an atom from the earlier ones.
I'm not disagreeing with that, but if time as we know it always involves a decrease in order, does such a concept exist in the new heavens and new earth? Maybe it does, and God has to periodically wind up the universe every so often.
Time elapses even when there is no clock to measure it!
 

Clete

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No, they are NOT! None of those things is "measuring entropy".
They aren't "measuring" it, per se, but they are examples of entropic systems.

There is nothing more "disorderly" about the sand in the bottom of the hour glass than the top.
It isn't about the order but the energy state. The sand in the top has more potential energy than the sand at the bottom. The sand falls to the bottom and the potential energy is converted to kinetic energy, sound and heat due to friction. To reset that sort of clock you have to convert the energy in your muscles back into potential energy by working against gravity (and a slight amount of air resistance) by flipping it over and thereby adding the energy to the system.

There is nothing more "disorderly" about the winding down of a spring in a Timex from it's wound up predecessor.

There is nothing more "disorderly" about the later vibrations of an atom from the earlier ones.
"Disorderly" is a poor choice of words but these are still entropic systems in that they are moving from a higher energy state to a lower one. (The atoms are actually oscillated back and forth but not without some loss of energy.

Time elapses even when there is no clock to measure it!
So long as events transpire. Quite so.
 

Right Divider

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They aren't "measuring" it, per se, but they are examples of entropic systems.
My point was that they are not measuring entropy.

Entropy is everywhere in our universe, but there is not a single clock that is measuring it.
It isn't about the order but the energy state. The sand in the top has more potential energy than the sand at the bottom. The sand falls to the bottom and the potential energy is converted to kinetic energy, sound and heat due to friction. To reset that sort of clock you have to convert the energy in your muscles back into potential energy by working against gravity (and a slight amount of air resistance) by flipping it over and thereby adding the energy to the system.
Indeed, so again... not measuring entropy, right?
"Disorderly" is a poor choice of words but these are still entropic systems in that they are moving from a higher energy state to a lower one. (The atoms are actually oscillated back and forth but not without some loss of energy.
Perhaps, but regardless, there are no clocks that are measuring entropy.... correct?
So long as events transpire. Quite so.
(y)
 

Clete

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My point was that they are not measuring entropy.

Entropy is everywhere in our universe, but there is not a single clock that is measuring it.

Indeed, so again... not measuring entropy, right?

Perhaps, but regardless, there are no clocks that are measuring entropy.... correct?

(y)
We are in agreement. I was just clarifying things.

Clocks are regular occurring events that we use measure the duration and sequence of other events.
 

Derf

Well-known member
No, that is just a list of events that happen to be examples of things going from order to disorder and not all of them are even that (the oscillations measured by atomic clocks is literally atoms moving back and forth from a higher energy state to a lower one and back again).
But the way the atoms are moved to a higher energy state is by human intervention, which is a recognizable anti-entropic force, just like God is. And after they are pushed (pumped) to the higher energy, they regularly fall to the lower energy state, pretty much like an hourglass being inverted when the sand all reaches the bottom compartment.
 

Derf

Well-known member
No, they are NOT! None of those things is "measuring entropy".

There is nothing more "disorderly" about the sand in the bottom of the hour glass than the top.
There is nothing more "disorderly" about the winding down of a spring in a Timex from it's wound up predecessor.
There is nothing more "disorderly" about the later vibrations of an atom from the earlier ones.

Time elapses even when there is no clock to measure it!
How do you know?
 

JudgeRightly

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So He can know whether a day is like a thousand years and vice versa.

Putting aside for a moment the fact that the verse you are referring to is about God's patience and longsuffering, which is stated by the verses immediately following that one, why would would God need to know this?
 

Derf

Well-known member
Putting aside for a moment the fact that the verse you are referring to is about God's patience and longsuffering, which is stated by the verses immediately following that one, why would would God need to know this?
I don't know. Maybe time doesn't matter in God's domain, though I think you've argued against such before. Most longer times in the bible are marked with a beginning point and a duration, like "in the twelfth year of the reign of King Joe...", or "from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah comes will be 70 weeks". (Neither of the above are direct quotes.) God does the same, it seems, but He uses our timekeeping devices, such as the sun, moon, and earth: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth,...there was evening and morning, the nth day."

I'm not trying to disagree with you, but to think through what God thinks about time.
 

Clete

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But the way the atoms are moved to a higher energy state is by human intervention, which is a recognizable anti-entropic force, just like God is. And after they are pushed (pumped) to the higher energy, they regularly fall to the lower energy state, pretty much like an hourglass being inverted when the sand all reaches the bottom compartment.
Thank you for conceding the point.
 

Clete

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Because God crossed an eternity.

https://kgov.com/time see misconception 4.

Oh, and @Clete, see the above link, misconception 3. That's what I was referring to earlier with my "time being a river" comment.
I recall Bob talking about it more than once over the years.
The concept of discussing time in that manner works quite well, so long as it is done consistently. The only problem with it is that pretty nearly the whole world thinks of it in the opposite terms and so whether Bob's way of thinking is technically more correct or not, it sucks having to explain yourself every time you want to discuss it those terms. It's easier and totally gets the job done by simply sticking with the common vernacular. There's just too much effort and not enough benefit to bucking the conventional way of discussing it - in my opinion.
 
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