What the Law and the Bible say about Homosexuality.
- Thread starter Jacob
- Start date
Romans 1:18-32 affirms that those who practice homosexuality (edit- and other crimes) are worthy of death.
being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; [they are] gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
Lon
Well-known member
This isn't quite true, although in the current political trend, it is. We 'used' to make those who came to the U.S. take classes in English, for example. Whatever we care about, is enacted upon in law. The reason we stopped making it a crime to put adulterers in jail, was because we somehow stopped seeing it as a crime against a spouse. It still is a crime against a spouse. Shoot, if we allowed a bit of jail time, maybe a few spouses would stop killing those who break their vows. It would be 'good' in such a case and with such a noble reason. If it would actually do that, might be another story, but the sentiment is good and is there. If I can get a ticket when nobody is harmed, certainly we can rethink some of our more serious laws and rethink if they might be wise to enforce and not ignore (many have never been removed from the books). Jacob's interest is what could/should be a cross over from God's laws to common law. I think he makes a good point here. There are common reasons for making laws that help and support people.
It is a precarious balance. Our laws do (whether or not they 'should') reflect what is a common value, else they'd never be changed. The 'never change' is, I think the question on the table. Jesus Christ said the laws of God were all based on love of man and love of God. If we could base common law more on love than expediency, there would be a lot of crossover (why I think Jacob's thread here isn't just theological discussion).
It already did once, under the war of the states. We just changed the word murder for 'war' or 'justified, but it was still one American killing another American. War crimes during were prosecuted. Had the other side one, it'd have gone another way. It very much can happen again, especially if we continue partisan interest that divide us more than unite us. The Second Civil War sends a shiver down my spine.
Not true. NC? L.A. Riots? Yes they were wrong, but many murders went unprosecuted. Perhaps they were murderers, perhaps they were not, but suspended their scruples. Either way, such allowed murders to happen and provided the means for them to go w/o the law.
I've been alive long enough to see men jailed for abuse of family, and men who would have gone to jail for adultery go free. I never envisioned this happening either....but it did. I can't take great comfort on your lone assurance here.
Somehow, some way, people are killing one another in Muslim countries where Christians are put to death legally, by run-of-the-mill, regular ol' everyday muslims, wherever they are in charge. I cannot fathom that, yet it is happening. I can't have my head in the sand. One in every third act of terrorism in America is from a Muslim, many 'homegrown' Muslims at that. It means we vet our own cut throats. To me? Insane. We are in a sense, already vetting, thus condoning murder/murderers without a care in the world. It horrifies me. The relationship then, is that these are all things I never thought I was going to see happen, yet they are indeed happening (only connection at this point).
Not the point. The point rather, that BOTH common and God's law rule and there is a precedent for it in our country's history. It was not a bad thing, therefore we should rethink 'just because it is JudeoChristian does NOT mean it is to be done away with. It is mutually beneficial to all people by historical reckoning. No bad thing that.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Death for lying.
Death for adultery.
Death for fornication.
Death for homosexuality.
Don't play innocent. We've all seen what you preach.
Bring where?
To Jerusalem!
Morality did NOT come from God. Morality was morality before the law. God is not merely righteous, He is righteousness. God has never not been moral. These are not rules that God made up or decided upon any more than God created Himself. The Law and morality are not the same thing any more that God and the Law are the same thing.
I have been crucified with Christ. The law has nothing to say once sentence has been carried out. For it to do so would be unjust.
Colossians 2:20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
You simply have no idea what you're talking about or the damage your doctrine is doing to your spiritual life.
It is not possible for anyone to become a proselyte Jew today. Israel has been cut off and now there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile.
You know why?
There are several reasons but chief among them is because the handwriting that was against us and contrary to us has been wiped out. Christ has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (again Colossians 2)
Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
WELL THAT'S JUST EXACTLY THE WHOLE ENTIRE POINT!!!
It is Christ that you need NOT THE LAW!!!!
This entire discussion seems to be a study of the 2nd chapter of Colossians..
Colosians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
Now, don't just skim over that passage! Read it. Read it twice.
I didn't put anything in bold there, Jacob.
Regardless, I invite you not only to read what I've quoted but the whole chapter, the whole book for that matter. Paul's entire ministry can is "Do not partake of the Law because if you do, Christ will profit you nothing."
Did you come to Christ through the Law or by faith? If you began by faith then on what basis do you wish to be perfected by your flesh which is what the law pertains to?
That's not me asking those questions, it's the Apostle Paul!
Galatians 3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
The Law Brings a Curse
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
The Law Brings a Curse
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
And for good measure, one more verse from Colossians 2...
Colossians 2:6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
Now, I wanted very much to highlight particular sentences but I did not. Instead I posted more of the passage to carry in the context. Please do not simply skim over it. You really must read it.
In western culture almost everyone who is circumcised was because of cultural norms, not because the Torah demands it. It wasn't a religious ritual and has nothing to do with what Paul is talking about.
The law is all about cutting off the desires of the flesh and circumcision, being a literal cutting off of the flesh, is symbolic of the whole law. Paul isn't merely talking about the specific religious ritual, he is telling people to not place themselves under the law. Go back up and read verse 10 of Galatians 3. I'll quote it again here for emphasis...
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
Jesus absolutely did not cancel out the law. He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17). But that isn't what I asked you.
I ask you again...
Was Jesus righteous because He follow the Law of Moses?
Your comment here brings up another question. How would you reconcile these two verses...
Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,...(full passage quoted earlier in the post).
Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances,...(full passage quoted earlier in the post).
Progress! :BRAVO:
Resting in Him,
Clete
Death for lying?
The only time such a punishment for lying would be appropriate is if someone commits perjury in a capital case...
Deuteronomy 19:18 And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother, 19 then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. 20 And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you. 21 Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
That's justice right? If someone testifies in court trying to convict an innocent man (or acquit a guilty man) then it should be done to the false witness as he sought to have done to the defendant (or be punished as an accomplice).
That's all criminal justice is by the way. It is doing undo the criminal as he has done (or sought to do) to his neighbor. It is the golden rule applied by the governing official to the criminal.
Clete
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
glory makes an obvious statement:
doser reminds glory that she already approves of "forcing" the law of Moses on people today:
glory deflects:
yes, as specified by Clete
death for murder? yep
death for stealing? yes, in certain circumstances in which the theft would endanger the life of another - carjacking with an infant in the back seat comes to mind
doser reminds glory that she already approves of "forcing" the law of Moses on people today:
glory deflects:
yes, as specified by Clete
death for murder? yep
death for stealing? yes, in certain circumstances in which the theft would endanger the life of another - carjacking with an infant in the back seat comes to mind
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
on what should Christians base their beliefs about how civil law should be formulated?
my answer is God's Law
what's your answer?
curious about these "boundaries" - got any scripture to explain what you mean?
Kidnapping was a capital crime anyways.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
true dat
the first thing that came to mind was horse theft in the old west
can you think of any circumstances involving theft that were addressed in scripture, that called for the death penalty?
I was thinking more along these lines:
“He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death. - Exodus 21:16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus21:16&version=NKJV
Not off the top of my head... :think:
Except for kidnapping...
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
ok, circumstances that would put another's life at risk
theft of water from someone travelling through the desert
theft of my son's insulin, especially in circumstances where it couldn't quickly be replaced
theft of evidence exonerating a man charged with a capital crime
i'm sure i could come up with others
in each of those cases, restitution would not be applicable
theft of water from someone travelling through the desert
theft of my son's insulin, especially in circumstances where it couldn't quickly be replaced
theft of evidence exonerating a man charged with a capital crime
i'm sure i could come up with others
in each of those cases, restitution would not be applicable
I am somewhat amazed that someone who is a Christian will make statements like this. Here is why.
Who has an intelligence that makes human intelligence look absolutely puny in comparison? Who knows human nature inside and out, perfectly? Who has more foresight, God or humans? Who understands the consequences of sin better, God or humans? The answers to these questions leads me to understand that God had good reasons for associating the punishments and behaviors that He did.
I look at these behaviors and understand that each of them has unleashed a torrent of pain, misery and suffering upon the world. Lying introduced sin and untold misery upon the human race. It is a terrible behavior with horrific consequences. All we have to do to understand this is look at human history. How about adultery? How much pain and suffering has it unleashed upon humanity? How many broken homes, heartbroken adults and children has it produced? How many times has it introduced an std into the marriage relationship? Now how about strictly fornication? How many unwanted children has it produced? How many children have grown up in grinding poverty because of it? How many children have been robbed of the needed influence of one or both their parents that would result in a stable individual instead of one who grows up to be a drain on society? How many people have suffered for a lifetime from the effects of stds? How many men and women have had their hearts broken because they were used by another individual to satisfy their own lusts? How much misery, pain and suffering has homosexuality introduced into the world? How much pain and suffering has AIDS alone caused? How many children have been confused as to their God-given identities and died because of it?
These are only a very few of the consequences of these behaviors, and yet the punishments that God invoked for limiting all the resulting pain and suffering are seen as cruel and unjust. I simply do not understand the reasoning. I simply do not understand how humans can think they know more than God about all of this. God set the punishments He did to limit the evils all these sins create.
Think what our world would be like if no one lied. Think what it would be like if no one cheated on their spouse. Think what our world would be like if we didn't have sexual predators. The examples are numerous. If our world actually followed God's instructions and His 10 commandments the amount of suffering in this world would be reduced to a very small percentage of what it is now. And yet even Christians are conflating license and liberty and in so doing think themselves loving and caring. It's really sad.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
great post ffreeloader!
a complicating factor with glory (perhaps others as well) is that she doesn't believe that the law has a deterrent effect, perhaps because modern law is so far distanced from God's law
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
The Pope, based on imo faulty reasoning, now is of the political opinion that the death penalty should be suspended indefinitely in all cases. I disagree with his political opinion, because I disagree with his reasoning. Even in modern countries with modern prisons, it remains a possibility that the incarcerated person can still be a threat to innocent people, even when 'behind bars' (due to criminal networking /communicating between those imprisoned, and those walking around freely outside), and in this type case, I fully support the administration of the death penalty, to defend innocent people from murderers et al.
Theologically, it's interesting to me that the grave /serious sins Catholicism teaches about are largely those offenses that under Moses deserved the death penalty. Thus, when any of these grave sins are committed with full knowledge, and with deliberate consent, Catholicism teaches that they are "mortal sins," and in this case "mortal" means the same thing as "fatal." They are deserving of death (Catholicism teaches that if someone commits a mortal sin, that their love is now dead).
I find the correlation intellectually satisfying fwiw.
Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
And in some of these cases, exercising the right to bear arms will take care of the problem right quick, which is only one of the powerful reasons to support the right to bear arms, and the Second Amendment's wording of it is pretty good for a cluster of men living in the late 1700s imo. To boil it down, they wrote, "The right to bear arms shall not be infringed."
The failure of modern laws to change behavior has little to do with their distance from God's law. The entire failure of our legal system to influence behavior is the lack of the political will to consistently enforce the punishment prescribed by law. It's been proven many times that inconsistent punishment is a greater cause of bad behavior than no punishment at all for inconsistent punishment causes those who would break the law to believe that even if they are caught they won't be punished. I can't remember the name of the guy who first discovered this but it's been known for quite a few decades. Inconsistency hardens people into deliberately breaking the laws of the land.
The evidence that what I said above is true can be found in the history of the kingdom of Israel. Whenever God's law was very inconsistently enforced the nation went to rack and ruin. One king would follow God's will and the next wouldn't. It created a huge dichotomy in the entire nation and even during the times of reform there were many who would not reform but continually break the laws God set up in Israel. Why? Because the penalties for breaking the laws were not enforced consistently. How many people would continue in a bad behavior like lying if the death penalty was enforced every time someone lied? Not very many, and those people would soon be dead so they couldn't continue their behavior. The deterrence of that kind of enforcement soon puts an end to destructive behaviors.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
artie recognizes that laws and harsh punishments have a deterrent effect, he just draws the wrong conclusion:
obviously, i disagree - if we made adultery a capital crime with death by being pushed off a cliff being one of the execution options we'd see a few, maybe several adulterers plummet
and then we'd see adultery rates plummet
Let God deal with that which pertains to God's laws. Government is not God.
Let the state deal with speeding tickets and the like, and let God deal with sodomites and adulterers.