What is the Gospel?

[Ask Mr. Religion]

That's what Calvinists call Limited atonement, which is the L in TULIP.

It is what the Bible teaches: Particular Redemption, Definite Redemption, Actual Atonement, Intentional Atonement

Christ died sufficiently for all, not effectually. There is the value of Christ's blood, and the virtue of Christ's blood. Christ's blood has value enough to redeem the whole world—but the virtue of it is applied only to such as believe.

AMR

 

[Sonnet]

It is what the Bible teaches: Particular Redemption, Definite Redemption, Actual Atonement, Intentional Atonement

Christ died sufficiently for all, not effectually. There is the value of Christ's blood, and the virtue of Christ's blood. Christ's blood has value enough to redeem the whole world—but the virtue of it is applied only to such as believe.

AMR

Zero scriptures explicitly teach what you assert - that is why you offer none.

This is truth of what Scripture actually and explicitly says:
John 1:29, John 3:4-16, Titus 2:11, 1 Timothy 1:15, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, Hebrews 2:9.

 

[Sonnet]

Absolutely not!

Paul is a believer.
He assumes the members of the Corinthian church are believers and it is his duty to correct some of their doctrine.

Paul is not including any unbelievers. This is obvious from the first verse. 1 Cor 15:1KJV

Paul explicitly allows for unbelievers to be included in those whom he addresses.

v.2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

The 'this' that Paul is referring to is the same 'this' of v.11 - the Gospel they believed which Paul states in vv.3-5.

You offer zero scriptures that state that Christ died for less than all.

 

[Sonnet]

Absolutely not!

Paul is a believer.
He assumes the members of the Corinthian church are believers and it is his duty to correct some of their doctrine.

Paul is not including any unbelievers. This is obvious from the first verse. 1 Cor 15:1KJV

1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.

What the unbelieving Corinthians received was the Gospel that he preached to them. Paul reminds them of that very thing - and states it.

You are actually denying the very Gospel of Jesus Christ. And you are a believer. Paul EXPLICITLY calls it the Gospel and states that he preaches it.

 

[Sonnet]

"IF" you are seeking salvation from Christians. :think: You may not realize this, but you are confused about Who and What AND going to the wrong place and wrong person for this. There IS only one Mediator and your 'search' is avoiding Him. Luke 23:30 Revelation 6:12-17 Read either of these on one of your many times? Sonnet, there is ONLY you and God. There is no 'us' but for love and doing the work of workmen to point. That is ALL we are good for - to point you to where YOU need to go. We CAN'T push or shove you that direction. You HAVE to walk that way yourself. About ten verses come to mind: John 10:27 Matthew 16:24 Luke 9:23 Hebrews 3:15 John 3:19 ... Are you reading these verses when they are posted?
WHAT, isn't defined? Romans 10:13 Again, we can BUT point the way. Acts 4:12 Salvation IS coming to Christ and asking Him to make you His, and save you from sin. It is in the asking and believing. Did you NOT meet the Lord Jesus Christ when you suggest you are saved? 1 John 2:9 John says it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to walk away. I believe him. I CANNOT walk away from my wife, because it is a commitment bigger than I. I CANNOT walk away from the Lord Jesus Christ because I have an UNDYING love for Him! He cannot disown Himself. He cannot be less than love. I have NO idea what you thought you knew as a supposed believer but no matter how many times you read the New Testament, you DID NOT find out how high, wide, and deep was the love of Christ. If you did, you could NEVER have walked away. Ephesians 3:18 2 Corinthians 5:20

Sonnet, how in the wide-world, can/could you, chuck the Lord Jesus Christ? HOW is that possible? I say it is not! 1 John 4:10

WHY aren't any of these scriptures, that you've reportedly read many times, readily coming to mind? Did you EVER love the Savior????

Look: I'm wrestling for your soul. You CANNOT come to me for salvation, but even the most blunt person in this thread, loves your soul, is disgusted with your opposition to love and grace, etc. Try and see love, even when it looks tough. Nobody came into this thread but to wrestle with YOU, for YOUR good. Think about all of this and the scriptures deeply. -Lon

With respect Lon - this thread isn't about my salvation but asks for a clear definition of the Gospel.
I do read the scriptures you post. No, I have never met Christ.

You cite 1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

and yet some here are limiting that love are they not?

It is clear from 1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

that without the crucifixion/resurrection then there is no hope or good news. So if it is said that Christ died/rose for only some people then we have a totally different Gospel do we not?

 

[Sonnet]

Do all believe? I rest my case.

The model is the Mosaic bronze serpent lifted up for dying Israelites, and that such was irrespective of whether they would look or not.

You provided no explicit scriptures that would underpin your assertion.

 

[Sonnet]

As long as you are seeking Nirvana, you will remain in your present state.

You presume that all believers are one hundred percent aligned in matters of doctrine, despite Scripture's own testimony that differences will continue until the eschaton. We all see through a glass darkly according to the gifts given to us and what we make of them. Even the most mature believer, some of those great saints that have preceded us, remains in error on the finer points of what Scripture teaches. Outside of Jesus Christ and the inspired writers of Scripture, not a single person exists as an infallible interpreter of Scripture. Your continues quest for perfection is a fool's errand.

Suppose you will be saved tonight. Is it your assumption you will then possess infallible knowledge of all matters of the faith? No. Your walk of faith will take you down many paths, some fruitful, some not. You will spend a lifetime extracting the wonderful truths of Scripture, yet will have only plumbed the mere surface of what is contained therein.

Scripture is perspicuous, however, concerning your duty. Call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. There is no debate around this wonderful promise. You refuse to accept it, clear as it is, but prefer to be divisive about other matters that will likely sort themselves out after you have done your duty. Do your duty. Stop denying what you are required to do. We all see through your tactics.

AMR

Zero scriptures teach Christ died for less than all. I've cited those scriptures that say he died for all. This not a fine point but a fundamental pillar of the Gospel and nobody should think it can only be viewed through 'a glass darkly'.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Zero scriptures explicitly teach what you assert - that is why you offer none.

I was unaware that I must repeat myself time and again. You sure do like to yell "Gotcha!" at every chance. You are not really a "seeker". Seems to me a seeker would be hungry for any and all information and not given over to these biting responses. You actually are just wanting to debate under the guise of "seeking". Knock it off.

If Christ died for all of the sins of all men without exception, upon what basis would any man be denied heaven? Remember, unbelief is a sin and therefore a sin for which Christ died if He has truly died for all the sins of all men without exception.

I'll just get a few citations out of the way so that you can limit your next "Gotcha!" to some other supposed victory:


See: Psalm 34:22, Isaiah 53:8, Matthew 1:21, Matthew 20:28, Matthew 26:28, Luke 1:68, Luke 2:1-2, Luke 19:10, John 3:16 (the Father gave His Son for whom? - according to this verse the Son was given for whoever believes in Him (the believing ones) not for the ones not believing in Him), John 5:13, John 6:35-40, John 10:11, John 10:14 -18, John 10:24-29, John 12:32, John 17:1-11, John 17:20, John 17:24-26, Acts 20:28, Romans 5:8-10, Romans 5:18, Romans 8:32-34, Galatians 3:13, Ephesians 1:3-4, Ephesians 1:7, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 2:15-16, Ephesians 5:25-27, Hebrews 2:9, Hebrews 2:17, Hebrews 3:1, Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 10:14, Colossians 1:21-22, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19, 1 Timothy 1:15, 2 Timothy 2:4-6, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:1-2, 1 John 4:14, Titus 2:14, Revelation 5:9.

This is truth of what Scripture actually and explicitly says:
John 1:29, John 3:4-16, Titus 2:11, 1 Timothy 1:15, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, Hebrews 2:9.

If this is the "truth" then what is holding you back? Why do you continue with this rinse and repeat argument? You are emphatic "This is the truth...". Then if it be so, then what in the world is the matter with you? You have declared you know the truth, so do your duty.

Well?
No more word games.
No more, "yes, but..."

You plainly state: "This is the truth..." You apparently are in possession of the truth. What are you doing about it?


AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Zero scriptures teach Christ died for less than all. I've cited those scriptures that say he died for all. This not a fine point but a fundamental pillar of the Gospel and nobody should think it can only be viewed through 'a glass darkly'.

You are just ignoring the point of my response.

I do not care one wit whether you believe what I have to say, or you believe what you have to say. In both situations, your duty remains. Do it.

AMR

 

[blackbirdking]

The OP says:
What is the Gospel?
If the Gospel isn't clearly defined then, surely, the non-believer may legitimately ask, 'Believe in what?'

Some would say a parachute that doesn't open; some are not allowed to believe.

You have had the saving gospel of grace, given by Christ through the Apostle to the Gentiles, shared with you several times now. Will you believe it or not?

Can he?

Oh, right...

You don't believe you need saved.

By a God who saves some and who will not save all?

He's heard it preached here and he believes not and therefore is blinded by the god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV). So be it.

By "the god of this world", do you mean Religion? That seems to be what crucified Jesus.

Who does until?......
“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.”

Paul, To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

If it doesn't/hasn't convert[ed] you, nothing I say will. It is the power of God. All this TOL stuff is but seeds and water. 1 Corinthians 3:7

If at all, any of my scriptures have been something you haven't read, forgot about, or reconsidered, then you hadn't read enough. One of my professors could quote the entire bible. That always humbled me.

The way it was originally written?

... He cannot be less than love. I have NO idea what you thought you knew as a supposed believer but no matter how many times you read the New Testament, you DID NOT find out how high, wide, and deep was the love of Christ. If you did, you could NEVER have walked away. Ephesians 3:18 2 Corinthians 5:20

-Lon

That's exactly what he's been saying this whole thread. Read the whole thing again. "The love of Christ" is only so high, so wide, and so deep according to many who teach the Gospel. It is not for all men.
So Sonnet reads the Bible and then hears from the 'church' that he misunderstood it; sweet.
Why wouldn't he question?

Do all believe? I rest my case.

Your case rests on a false premise.
Because all don't believe, you follow with the idea that Christ did not die for all. You bit into a false apple.

Christ is the Good News and the Good News is for all men. Christ is for all men, period. That's not universalism as you assert..., Christ died for all men and all men need that Gospel.

He "spent" plenty of ink, but you refuse to look for it. You refuse to accept it when it's handed to you on a silver spoon. You turn away when it's practically shoved down your throat.

You even post verses that prove what you're saying is nonsense. Whosoever believeth....those who look will live. Clearly, there are exceptions in the very examples you give. The exceptions are those who refuse to access the shed blood through faith.

You are getting a lot of attention, though, aren't you. :chuckle:

Your right again; he refuses to accept the Gospel as presented by you; Christ didn't die for only some.

Notice how he won't touch this. It's not why he's here.

You too think he should believe the Gospel as not for all men?

Yeah, he thinks he is proving some point.....not sure what, but he's clearly not the poor boy Evil Eye was having such a fit over. Scam city.

You made the point; you said,

Christ died for those who walk through the open door.

You definitely implied that Christ did not die for all and you agreed with others who definitely believe that same idea.

Christ died for all men, therefore, any man can walk through the door. It is Christ that gives all men the ability to come to God. You bit into Calvinism's lie based on false reasoning; Christ's work is not wasted if some do not believe and neither do a man's sins have to be paid for twice.

Christ does not forgive men for their sins, God does.

You followed Calvin's reasoning and you are definitely incorrect; Christ died for all men and they need to know it.

As long as you are seeking Nirvana, you will remain in your present state.

You presume that all believers are one hundred percent aligned in matters of doctrine, despite Scripture's own testimony that differences will continue until the eschaton. We all see through a glass darkly according to the gifts given to us and what we make of them. Even the most mature believer, some of those great saints that have preceded us, remains in error on the finer points of what Scripture teaches. Outside of Jesus Christ and the inspired writers of Scripture, not a single person exists as an infallible interpreter of Scripture. Your continues quest for perfection is a fool's errand.

Suppose you will be saved tonight. Is it your assumption you will then possess infallible knowledge of all matters of the faith? No. Your walk of faith will take you down many paths, some fruitful, some not. You will spend a lifetime extracting the wonderful truths of Scripture, yet will have only plumbed the mere surface of what is contained therein.

Scripture is perspicuous, however, concerning your duty. Call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. There is no debate around this wonderful promise. You refuse to accept it, clear as it is, but prefer to be divisive about other matters that will likely sort themselves out after you have done your duty. Do your duty. Stop denying what you are required to do. We all see through your tactics.

AMR

It is self defeating; you urge Sonnet to do something he's not capable of doing. When he's capable, he'll do it, or he's damned; big deal. God is Sovereign and decides, so live with it. It sounds like you don't really believe Calvinism to it's extent.

 

[Sonnet]

Christ died for all men and they need to know it.

Christ died for all men and they need to know it.

I just wanted to echo this, ta. I can't think of anything that could command a man's attention better than this.

 

[heir]

I'm not 'disapproving of things that are excellent' heir -

If that were true, you would be saved and 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

 

[heir]

By "the god of this world", do you mean Religion? That seems to be what crucified Jesus.

god of this world: Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Satan does most certainly manifest himself in the religious, denominational system as does his deceitful workers:

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

How you would identify such is by the gospel they preach and doctrine contrary to ours being preached as "unto" us.

 

[Sonnet]

If that were true, you would be saved and 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

Except, of course, many Christians don't agree with the dispensationalism you are advocating - so I don't see your point.

You didn't actually deal with what I wrote.

 

[Right Divider]

Except, of course, many Christians don't agree with the dispensationalism you are advocating - so I don't see your point.

What "Many 'Christians'" believe does not falsify the truth.

 

[George Affleck]

As you are a thinking person, I find it hard to accept that you can't see how thin and ridiculous your argument is.

Paul explicitly allows for unbelievers to be included in those whom he addresses.

No, he actually says the exact opposite.

v.2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

This is not inclusion, it is exclusion. "Otherwise" performs the task of excluding, from his address, those who do not hold to the gospel as preached because they reject the resurrection. KJV - "Unless".
ἐκτὸς- outside, beyond, outside of, exterior. It is a statement that contrasts two different groups. The second is a group who have begun by believing a part of the gospel and have not followed through. For them there is no good news if there is no resurrection. They are on the outside, whoever they are. To them the gospel that Paul preached was not effectual.

There is no essential difference between what Paul is saying and Jesus talking about the seed falling on bad ground. The gospel is preached to all but not all believe and even some of those who begin do not follow through.

The 'this' that Paul is referring to is the same 'this' of v.11 - the Gospel they believed which Paul states in vv.3-5.

The "this" you refer to is an incorrect rendering in the NIV (and one or two others) and is misleading at best. Most versions use "thus" or "so". It does not mean a particular set of truths, it means a manner of presentation. After this manner, in this way, thusly.
οὗτος means thus, not this.

You offer zero scriptures that state that Christ died for less than all.

No need. You have already provided them.
Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

 

[glorydaz]

That's what Calvinists call Limited atonement, which is the L in TULIP.

Do they? I'm sure the reasons they say that are different than the reasons I gave in my post.

This is just how silly the semantics game can be played.

If He had died for all, then all would be saved. Are all saved? No.

I say, He died for all so that all COULD be saved, which is what the rest of my post explained, but you chose to ignore.

 

[glorydaz]

It is what the Bible teaches: Particular Redemption, Definite Redemption, Actual Atonement, Intentional Atonement

Christ died sufficiently for all, not effectually. There is the value of Christ's blood, and the virtue of Christ's blood. Christ's blood has value enough to redeem the whole world—but the virtue of it is applied only to such as believe.

AMR

Yep, one must access the blood by faith.

Romans 5:1-2
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.​

Christ's death made it possible to come before the throne of Grace. Men may disagree about who is able to come or whatnot, but there should be no debate about how we access the blood.

We don't access the blood by our own works of righteousness...that would be the OTHER Gospel people keep referring to.

 

[glorydaz]

Zero scriptures explicitly teach what you assert - that is why you offer none.

This is truth of what Scripture actually and explicitly says:
John 1:29, John 3:4-16, Titus 2:11, 1 Timothy 1:15, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, Hebrews 2:9.

Surely you jest. Talk about cherry picking and coming up with the pits. :chuckle:

What you ended up doing was proving yourself wrong.

I'll call your John verses and respond with John 3:16

Appeared to all men to save sinners is the purpose for which He came, but not all sinners are saved by that Grace, because not all sinners have FAITH by which they can access that grace. Of course God desires that all men come to the knowledge of the truth, but not all men will. It's why we preach the Gospel to the LOST. 2 Corinthians 4:3

2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.​

 

[glorydaz]

1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.

What the unbelieving Corinthians received was the Gospel that he preached to them. Paul reminds them of that very thing - and states it.

You are actually denying the very Gospel of Jesus Christ. And you are a believer. Paul EXPLICITLY calls it the Gospel and states that he preaches it.

Where's the part of Paul's Gospel that says we must confess Jesus Christ as THE LORD? Romans 10:9, Romans 10:10,11,12,13

Where's the part that says we are justified when we believe? Acts 13:39

Where's the part that says we are saved by Grace through faith? Eph. 2:8


Oops, guess he said that before, and everyone knows it but YOU. :chuckle: