What is the Gospel?

[Sonnet]

There are more than two hundred places in the New Testament where the condition for salvation is spelled out, and in all these, cases faith or belief is given as the one and only condition.

One must believe that Jesus has accomplished the salvation work on one's behalf. To be saved, one must believe not just that He died, but that He died for one's own sins. If one believes that Yeshua the Messiah died for his sins, that presupposes that one has confessed that he is a sinner. If Yeshua died for one's sins, obviously it means that he is a sinner. So one must believe that Yeshua died for his sins as his substitute, was buried and rose again, and therefore has provided salvation. Thus, one trusts Yeshua for his salvation.

This is the condition of salvation: faith must be placed in the Messiah as one's substitute for and as one's Savior from the penalty of sin.

First the word “faith” is used as “conviction that something is true.” Secondly, faith is used as “trust.” Thirdly, faith is used as “persuaded,” and it is stronger than mere opinion, though it is weaker than foreknowledge. Fourthly, faith is used as “belief based upon the facts of knowledge” (Rom. 10:14). And fifth, faith must have an object. The object of faith is God, while the content of faith is the death of the Messiah for one's sins, His burial and Resurrection.

If we are saved because of our faith then we aren't saved by what our faith is in. We are saved thru believing in the finished work not because we believe the finished work. The work of God saves and we receive the benefit of that work by trusting that that work alone is sufficient payment in the eyes of God our Father to satisfy His requirement for our sins, that payment is the blood of the only begotten Son of God.
Indeed my brothers and sisters the blood of Messiah is of infinite value.



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Sorry intojoy - you have lost me.

 

[Sonnet]

Then read the Bible, if you can't tease it out from all the differing vying factions. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

Confer Romans 10:9 (KJV) and 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

I don't know what the Gospel is. Two different ones that are in conflict with one another are preached.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

You appear to be arguing that those that won't preach 1 Corinthians 15:3ff to unbelievers are hyper-Calvinists (since you are reacted to my assertion that consistent Calvinist would not do so) - but you have already said this:

You move the goal posts and try another verse. Yet nothing therein supports your "therefore" conclusion that Paul told unbelievers "Christ died for our sins." You import what Paul was saying to the saints at Corinth into some generalization without warrant.

AMR​

in response to my:

There is one Gospel.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 is the Gospel.
Paul preached the Gospel to unbelievers (Romans 15:20).
Therefore Paul told unbelievers, 'Christ died for our sins'.

And we conclude that Christ died for all men without exception.​

That you also won't tell unbelieving individuals the (this) Gospel is making the same point isn't it?

You are not making sense here. I have stated, not implied, that the hyper-Calvinist usually rejects evangelization. My response quoted above remains as stated to your attempt to move the goal posts in the discussion in question. I have never maintained that 1 Cor 15:3-4 is the Gospel. Recall my earlier post in this thread discussing the many presuppositions required for such a claim. The gospel is not an incantation.

That you argue we cannot turn to God and that we inherit this total depravity, then it would seem that you cannot escape the charge that this makes God the author of their sin.

You are treading over well worn ground between you and I once more. God is not the doer of man's moral actions. God has decreed man's liberty of spontaneity, that is, their ability to choose according to their greatest inclinations at the moment they so choose. That is the only "free will" described within Scripture. God's sovereignty and man's responsibility need not be reconciled, as they are friends within Scripture, not enemies.

I have no problem accepting that men are inherently wicked, including myself.

Good to know. I assume by this you mean that all are born sinners, not born morally neutral. We sin because we are sinners. We do not become sinners by sinning. This is the dire condition of all in Adam.

AMR

 

[Sonnet]

That is an evaluation by a created being's vantage point based in human emotions. The proper attitude from created beings is that the plan of salvation is the outworking of the love of God.


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How does this address the assertion that we cannot accept the Gospel since we inherit total depravity?

 

[Sonnet]

Jesus is quoting from Isaiah, which speaks of a future time for the chosen nation Israel.

Isaiah 45:6 For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.​

We aren't there yet. They rejected our Lord when He came to rule over them.

Isaiah 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children. 14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee. 15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake. 16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. 17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.​

Ok - but it's difficult to discern exactly what is being said here (for me at least).

 

[freelight]

Jesus also lived during a time when the temple was still standing and it's requirements on Jews were mandatory. Many of the requirements of Jesus involved offering sacrifice and showing oneself to the priest. You can't really compare that to the good news of the gospel that went out after his death and resurrection. He also said those who do not experience the 'new birth' cannot even see the kingdom of God so your fixation on the word 'kingdom' is just a pretense to ignore the direction that God was leading Jews and Gentiles towards, which was out of the law and into grace. God was leading Jews and Gentiles into grace and today the exact opposite is happening. Christians are abandoning grace to go back to a law that was never even for them and the Jews never came out of it to begin with.

Beyond the law and grace issues within the context of the NT, I would refer Sonnet to consider the teachings of Jesus himself first, then he can compare that with the teachings of Paul, and put together the narratives also in the book of Acts to discover for himself what the 'gospel' (good news) really is (it is a compound, not any one singular thing), and you will still find that the 'kingdom of God' is still foundational as that 'realm' or 'communion' of souls with God in community, whether in this world or any other world.

Do note as well, that when Jesus taught in the gospel of John of being 'born of the Spirit',...this was a teaching his disciples would have known, concerning the 'new birth' or being 'born from above',...so it would be a reality each recipient of the 'gospel' could accept AT THAT TIME of ministry, where souls awaken in the spirit and recognize they are sons and daughters of God, by spiritual regeneration or illumination (all the work of God's Spirit of course). This is the kingdom of God that all may enter into NOW, in the omnipresence of 'God'.

The good news includes our coming into sonship with God, realizing we are His offspring, then moving forward in that relationship and progressive evolution in the 'kingdom'.

 

[intojoy]

The Jews had asked Jesus if he was the Messiah...

John 10:25-28
Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

You don't think salvation continued to be the context in the following verses, included vv.37,28?

No


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[intojoy]

How does this address the assertion that we cannot accept the Gospel since we inherit total depravity?

It doesn't and it doesn't have to.


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[Sonnet]

No


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The context set in v.28 is shifted to another context where?

 

[Nihilo]

I don't know what the Gospel is. Two different ones that are in conflict with one another are preached.

Really. 've told you three times. Here it is again. The Lord Jesus Christ is risen! Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

Confer Romans 10:9 (KJV) and 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

 

[Sonnet]

It doesn't and it doesn't have to.


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But that is what I asked. You admit it didn't address it. A non sequitur.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

You also assert the following:

Pre-fall -- able to not sin -- able to sin
Post-fall-- able to sin -- not able to not sin
Regenerate-- able to sin -- able to not sin
Glorified-- not able to sin -- able to not sin​

That explicitly has everyone born in a condition without the ability to turn to God.

Those in Adam, the unbelievers, hate God. Period. Even their civil good acts, helping the old lady across the road, giving to charity, etc., are done with the wrong motives, never to glorify God. The unbeliever sins with every breath they draw. Indeed, unbelievers have no moral ability to choose rightly as relates to seeking the righteousness of God. It is only when God does something, quickens these morally dead persons from spiritual death to life (regeneration), that they are instantaneously able and will indeed then choose to believe. Again, ought does not imply can.

This is the real Gospel according to you AMR.

Persons constructing straw men of the Calvinist's views by claiming we operate from the same presuppositions they do and therefore believe about our beliefs what they believe about our beliefs leaves no hope for honest discussion.

If you deny the consequences of original sin, then you naturally fall out where you are now. Apparently, men are captains of their own destinies and God is just sitting around wringing His hands hoping these finite creatures will just choose rightly. Those that do are somehow more illuminated, more wise, than their poor neighbors that do not. I and other Reformed or Calvinist believers do not seek to rob God of His glory and sovereignty by giving men reasons to boast, despite their vocal claims they are not boasting for their wise choices of "accepting Jesus into their hearts" after being wooed by God the Holy Spirit. My earlier post makes it clear that I reject any form of hypothetical universalism as having warrant in Scripture.

I am beginning to remember why I broke off communications with you in the past. From your sarcastic responses, it is as if I have been speaking in riddles and my plain words have not been read, nor understood.

As to your own eternal destiny, try to focus your attention upon what Scripture makes plain: all who call upon the name of the Lord will not be turned away, and will be saved. Trying to discern whether or not you are among the non-elect (a small number when compared to the elect) is a fool's errand, for no one knows the secret things of God. Oh, how I wish God would have just stamped His chosen with a nice label, "Mine!" It would make the Great Commission so simple for the ordained servants to whom the Commission was given. We need not waste our time with the non-elect at all and thereby hasten the second coming of Our Lord when the very last person appointed to eternal life is born anew. Yet, here my foolish wish is betrayed by the wisdom of God.

I occasionally have this nagging suspicion you have been born anew, but are just struggling with what exactly happened to explain how you got to the place you are now. If so, take up your cross, feed your faith and starve your doubts by not neglecting daily Scripture study, rejoicing in hope, being patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer (Romans 12:12), fellowship with other believers, keeping good stewardship of the secular and spiritual gifts God has given you—including how and where your time is being spent—and with regular assembly with others to worship God, receive instruction, access the ordinary means of grace, and be subject to discipline. In time it may all just start to fall together and make sense to you.

AMR

 

[intojoy]

But that is what I asked. You admit it didn't address it. A non sequitur.

Not me, the Bible doesn't answer what you asked.


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[glorydaz]

Ok - but it's difficult to discern exactly what is being said here (for me at least).

Sorry. :sigh:

 

[Sonnet]

Really. 've told you three times. Here it is again. The Lord Jesus Christ is risen! Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

Confer Romans 10:9 (KJV) and 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

It's argued, from scripture, that not all can avail themselves of the 'offer' of salvation (because some have not been favoured by God); Esau, Pharaoh and Judas have been mentioned.

It is a fact that 1 Corinthians 15:3 is (part of) the Gospel. It is also a fact that some Christians will not preach (this part of) the Gospel to unbelievers.

 

[Sonnet]

Sorry. :sigh:

I'm sure, rather, that the failing is on my part.

 

[intojoy]

The context set in v.28 is shifted to another context where?

To be a diligent student of the life of the Messiah one has to study the gospels by parallel. A harmony of the gospels by A T Robertson is a good one.
The reason that this is imperative is because not all of the four writers document the same details.

In John chapter 10 Yeshua is following up on His sermon on the mount where He taught the righteous requirements of the Law of Moses in contradistinction with the Pharisees. The house built upon the sand was First Century Pharisaic Judaism and the house built upon the rock was the teachings of Yeshua.

Yeshua sends out the disciples with strict directions not to go to the Gentiles. They are not to go to the Gentiles because it is the Messianic Kingdom that is being offered to Israel. At this point Yeshua is not offering the cross yet.

That is the context when we take scripture literally. For the Calvinist this does not make sense because they are the spiritual Israel.

For the Mad group it fits but they are weak in their understanding of Messianic Christology and therefore can't argue this point as clearly as I can.

You will find it easiest to argue your reasoning against the reformed brothers. However, your premise here for your line of reasoning is based upon ignorance of the literal fulfillment of the Messianic Kingdom offer to Israel. Only when this is acknowledged can we move onto another line of objections.


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[Sonnet]

I am beginning to remember why I broke off communications with you in the past. From your sarcastic responses, it is as if I have been speaking in riddles and my plain words have not been read, nor understood.

It will take me a while to respond to your posts - just wondering where my sarcasm was? All I said was, 'This is the real Gospel according to you AMR,' which refers to your asserts that:

1. Post-fall-- able to sin -- not able to not sin
2...God's warrant to dispose of His creatures justly and pour out His mercy on a great amount no man can number...

I apologise if it seemed sarcastic. It certainly was not meant to be. Looking back over our previous encounters, then I will apologise for my rather hotheaded language.

 

[Nihilo]

It's argued, from scripture, that not all can avail themselves of the 'offer' of salvation (because some have not been favoured by God); Esau, Pharaoh and Judas have been mentioned.

It's your OP, so you can follow whatever trail you'd like to, but your question was What is the Gospel? and that the Lord Jesus Christ is risen, is that.

It is a fact that 1 Corinthians 15:3 is (part of) the Gospel.

1st Corinthians 15:4 (KJV) and 2nd Timothy 2:8 (KJV) .. Romans 10:9 (KJV) .. 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

It is also a fact that some Christians will not preach (this part of) the Gospel to unbelievers.

"What is the Gospel?" is your question. And, why any Christian would fail to preach that He is risen, would be beyond me, but I don't see anybody not preaching that He is risen, no matter their theological persuasion, do you?

 

[intojoy]

It will take me a while to respond to your posts - just wondering where my sarcasm was? All I said was, 'This is the real Gospel according to you AMR,' which refers to your asserts that:

1. Post-fall-- able to sin -- not able to not sin
2...God's warrant to dispose of His creatures justly and pour out His mercy on a great amount no man can number...

I apologise if it seemed sarcastic. It certainly was not meant to be. Looking back over our previous encounters, then I will apologise for my rather hotheaded language.

I believe that some Calvinist believers are unable to admit that the elect were ever unsaved or lost. That is a theological inconsistency that weakens their line argument against you.
Bring it on home son, I'm waiting.


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